Inner Rebel

Dr. Diane Chung: Finding Your Personal Medicine — Radical Courage, Breaking Patterns, and Generational Healing

May 19, 2023 Season 1 Episode 9
Dr. Diane Chung: Finding Your Personal Medicine — Radical Courage, Breaking Patterns, and Generational Healing
Inner Rebel
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Inner Rebel
Dr. Diane Chung: Finding Your Personal Medicine — Radical Courage, Breaking Patterns, and Generational Healing
May 19, 2023 Season 1 Episode 9

Jess and Melissa sit down with Jessica's long-time naturopathic doctor and spiritual mentor, Dr. Diane Chung, who offers her unique perspective as an ND and educator for wellness, personal growth, and social change. The trio dives into an insightful and heartfelt exploration of the interplay between healing, radical courage, and breaking boundaries that confine us, discussing the nuances of healing and the journey of living an authentic life outside of labels, expectations, and boxes.

Throughout the conversation, Diane shares her personal journey that challenged traditional cultural norms and recounts her struggles in finding balance between her authentic self and meeting  familial expectations. The conversation addresses the challenges of being the "pattern breaker", dealing with "healing fatigue", and the fundamental question - why do we heal at all?  Exploring the nuances of radical courage, the impact of generational trauma, and how to find gentleness, safety, and self-compassion when it all gets hard, Diane offers practical insights on how to navigate the healing process, discover our "personal medicine," and understand the interconnectedness of all aspects of our lives.

Topics Discussed:

  • Personal growth and its various facets
  • The role of courage in personal and societal transformation
  • The holistic perspective of healing
  • Breaking away from labels and societal boxes 
  • Breaking our parents hearts to live our own path
  • Cultivating radical courage (versus confidence)
  • The power of mindfulness in breaking old patterns
  • Dealing with healing fatigue and the art of discernment
  • Discovering your personal medicine
  • Aligning life opportunities with personal values

If you loved today’s episode, please leave a review and share your favorite takeaways by screenshotting this episode and tagging us on Instagram! We also have a free monthly community call on the first Wednesday of every month, join here

CONNECT WITH DIANE

CONNECT WITH INNER REBEL

Follow Inner Rebel Podcast: @innerrebelpodcast
Follow Melissa: @therippleconnection
Follow Jessica:


If you loved today’s episode, please leave a review and share your favorite takeaways by screenshotting this episode and tagging us on Instagram! We also have a free monthly community call on the first Wednesday of every month, join here!

CONNECT WITH INNER REBEL

Follow Inner Rebel Podcast: @innerrebelpodcast
Follow Melissa: @therippleconnection
Follow Jessica: @bydesignwithjess
Visit the Inner Rebel website
Check out The Nova Community and become a founding member https://thenovalution.com/

Show Notes Transcript

Jess and Melissa sit down with Jessica's long-time naturopathic doctor and spiritual mentor, Dr. Diane Chung, who offers her unique perspective as an ND and educator for wellness, personal growth, and social change. The trio dives into an insightful and heartfelt exploration of the interplay between healing, radical courage, and breaking boundaries that confine us, discussing the nuances of healing and the journey of living an authentic life outside of labels, expectations, and boxes.

Throughout the conversation, Diane shares her personal journey that challenged traditional cultural norms and recounts her struggles in finding balance between her authentic self and meeting  familial expectations. The conversation addresses the challenges of being the "pattern breaker", dealing with "healing fatigue", and the fundamental question - why do we heal at all?  Exploring the nuances of radical courage, the impact of generational trauma, and how to find gentleness, safety, and self-compassion when it all gets hard, Diane offers practical insights on how to navigate the healing process, discover our "personal medicine," and understand the interconnectedness of all aspects of our lives.

Topics Discussed:

  • Personal growth and its various facets
  • The role of courage in personal and societal transformation
  • The holistic perspective of healing
  • Breaking away from labels and societal boxes 
  • Breaking our parents hearts to live our own path
  • Cultivating radical courage (versus confidence)
  • The power of mindfulness in breaking old patterns
  • Dealing with healing fatigue and the art of discernment
  • Discovering your personal medicine
  • Aligning life opportunities with personal values

If you loved today’s episode, please leave a review and share your favorite takeaways by screenshotting this episode and tagging us on Instagram! We also have a free monthly community call on the first Wednesday of every month, join here

CONNECT WITH DIANE

CONNECT WITH INNER REBEL

Follow Inner Rebel Podcast: @innerrebelpodcast
Follow Melissa: @therippleconnection
Follow Jessica:


If you loved today’s episode, please leave a review and share your favorite takeaways by screenshotting this episode and tagging us on Instagram! We also have a free monthly community call on the first Wednesday of every month, join here!

CONNECT WITH INNER REBEL

Follow Inner Rebel Podcast: @innerrebelpodcast
Follow Melissa: @therippleconnection
Follow Jessica: @bydesignwithjess
Visit the Inner Rebel website
Check out The Nova Community and become a founding member https://thenovalution.com/

Podcast: Inner Rebel

Episode Title: Diane Chung

Host(s): Jessica, Melissa

Guest(s): Diane

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Jessica (Host) | 90 - 6222
I know that we're going to be hearing, like, rain sounds through this episode, and I apologize in advance. Los Angeles has failed me.

Diane (Guest) | 6276 - 9438
17 and a lot of snow. So you can choose.

Melissa (Host) | 9524 - 12494
Jeff oh, my gosh. Where are you?

Diane (Guest) | 12692 - 14362
Toronto. Toronto, Canada.

Melissa (Host) | 14426 - 21102
Oh, my gosh. Negative 17. We've had, like, negative seven this week, but I'm in Colorado, and for us, it's unheard of.

Jessica (Host) | 21156 - 27590
So are you talking celsius or fahrenheit? Melissa I'm taking fahrenheit.

Diane (Guest) | 28490 - 30162
Fahrenheit is no, that's unusual.

Melissa (Host) | 30226 - 32738
No, you're doing celsius. I'm doing fahrenheit.

Diane (Guest) | 32834 - 33362
Celsius.

Melissa (Host) | 33426 - 34950
Yes. That's what's happening.

Diane (Guest) | 35020 - 35254
Okay.

Melissa (Host) | 35292 - 36870
I was like, oh, my gosh.

Jessica (Host) | 38810 - 120194
Okay. I don't even know where to begin. I'm torn between diving right into your bio just so I can get through it, because once I actually start talking to you about what you mean to me, we're going to have a hard time. So I just want to give our listeners a little idea of who is with us today. We have Dr. Diane Chung, who is a licensed Naturopathic. Doctor, you have over 20 years of experience, which is crazy because I think that's about as long as I have known you and have been seeing you. So, 20 years of experience. And you work at the intersection of health, personal growth, and social change. You bring this very unique and holistic lens to your work. And you have a blend of clinical and scientific education. You work with consciousness and behavioral sciences. So you offer this whole new spectrum of systems and strategies and practices to help individuals integrate the physical and psychosocial spiritual components of their lives. And you have helped many, many people, including myself. But calling you a Naturopath, even though I know that you are to me, is so limiting, it's hard for me to explain to people when I'm like, I had this major spiritual breakthrough or revelation with my Naturopath, and they're like, what?

Melissa (Host) | 120312 - 122020
You didn't just get blood work?

Diane (Guest) | 122950 - 123314
Yeah.

Jessica (Host) | 123352 - 128438
I have to classify it because this has been going on my whole life, so I never know how to actually describe you.

Melissa (Host) | 128524 - 136338
I think that's the thing with titles, right. They box us in and they don't feel enough for who we are as complete beings.

Diane (Guest) | 136434 - 137078
Exactly.

Jessica (Host) | 137244 - 152126
Which is a big part of the conversation I'd like to have with Diane today, because she is specialized in helping people break through those boxes. And you can't be contained in a box yourself, clearly. So I went to you when I was around 18 years old.

Diane (Guest) | 152228 - 152880
What?

Jessica (Host) | 153250 - 159434
Yeah. And I went to you probably to deal with acne. I was a teenager.

Diane (Guest) | 159482 - 160350
Who knows?

Jessica (Host) | 160850 - 200254
And I'm sure you helped me with that. But what I wasn't expecting was I mean, it was such a turning point in my life in terms of my own personal and spiritual development. And I have been on a journey with you for two decades. You have held me through some of the most massive, transformational, significant moments and events in my life. And all my most significant relationships. I don't even have words for how much you mean to me and how much I've learned from you. I just think you're a total genius not to hype you up too much.

Melissa (Host) | 200292 - 205040
Before you start talking, but the hype is already there.

Diane (Guest) | 206290 - 207726
I'm going to go now.

Melissa (Host) | 207908 - 211790
It's too late. You're hyped. We can't go back.

Jessica (Host) | 211860 - 212910
You're hyped.

Diane (Guest) | 213330 - 215146
I'm doomed. I'm doomed.

Melissa (Host) | 215258 - 217614
No, I have a feeling you're going to live up to the hype.

Jessica (Host) | 217662 - 218610
I just think so.

Melissa (Host) | 218680 - 219890
Strange suspicion.

Jessica (Host) | 220470 - 249050
So I know how I have seen you over the last 20 years. I know all of your credentials and your accomplishments. But we like to ask our guests a question at the start of our episodes. I'm interested in how you experience being yourself and how you see yourself. So we ask, who are you? Whatever that means to you. And we're also curious how that is different from who you thought you were supposed to be.

Diane (Guest) | 249120 - 253646
So there's no holding back. We're diving in is what you're saying. We're going full in? We're diving in.

Melissa (Host) | 253668 - 257920
We're going to full. We go to the deep end. We don't swim in the shallow end.

Diane (Guest) | 258850 - 339420
Going straight in. Fair enough. I expect no less from you. Thank you for the kind words and the sentiments, and the feeling is mutual. So to answer your question, words are also limiting. Like, every time we try to begin to classify ourselves into certain areas, it's already limiting to who we essentially are. How I experience myself is I'm going to say I have borders and no borders at the same time. It's interesting for me because I've had this sense of sensitivity and connection kind of my whole life. Like, I don't know life without it. I thought this was how everybody experienced life, first of all. So it was kind of surprising to me that, oh, you don't have this. And so as I discovered that, people were also sharing with me how it was challenging when they felt like they were borderless and they were picking up other people's things. And I actually very rarely had that kind of transference, if you will. I could shift perspectives like a transmitter very often. Like, I would just be able to switch frequency from a very young time that I'm me and there's a me, but then there's also not me and there's everything and everybody else. That's how I experience myself.

Jessica (Host) | 339870 - 355502
I understand what you're saying and I have seen you do that, but I'm wondering if you can elaborate a little bit on what that means to you. Like, how do you actually experience that so that our listeners might understand a little better?

Diane (Guest) | 355636 - 393034
What I might give you as an example is all of the different channels that are available on all of the different platforms right now. I feel like I've had that for most of my life, and I've been able to switch channels through all of these different channels pretty easily for a long time. And when I'm comparing notes with other people, if you will, they would feel like they only have a limited number of channels that they would be able to tune into and select from and they would only be able to watch one program. And for some reason I had a lot of selection of programs from a very young age.

Jessica (Host) | 393232 - 397610
How do you experience those programs and how can you distinguish between them?

Diane (Guest) | 397680 - 442314
I think that the more I teach this, the more actually attuned I can get to what this is. And I think the most colloquial way that we talk about this is when you get a vibe from somebody, oh, that guy feels like this or this person feels like this, everybody has a very unique signature about them. And that's what I can kind of tune into and it feels different in my body. It feels like a different signature that somebody kind of leaves. That's how I can distinguish one from the other. And it's not just people all the time, it's actually all kinds of things. And everybody can do this. I think everybody has access to all the channels for sure. And for some reason all of mine seemed to get switched on early. And so I've been working with this for a little while.

Melissa (Host) | 442432 - 467378
I'm curious as somebody that can really tune into the energy or the field around you, do you enjoy being around a lot of people or do you find more one on one? How is that sensory experience for you if you can tune in like that? Right, because I have friends that probably very relatable to what you described that have a hard time in group because it's like too much information coming at their bodies at once. So I'm curious what your experience is of being amongst people.

Diane (Guest) | 467544 - 508800
I have an interesting kind of constitution, I think, because when we do these Myers Briggs kinds of things, I always end up right in the middle of introvert and extrovert. Like right in the middle. And I think I'm an introvert. I think I want to be by myself. But whenever I tell anybody that, they're like, no you don't, they see me as an extrovert. And I love people. But I think that if the definition of introvert is that we recharge by ourselves, I think that I don't know. I can't even say that now that I think of it, because when I'm with other people, I feel this flow of energy and I can get charged up, but I think it might have to do with the company I'm keeping, if you will.

Melissa (Host) | 510130 - 510954
Totally.

Diane (Guest) | 511082 - 527878
Like, I get charged up in certain situations and I feel very recharged, even if it's with lots of people, sometimes more so. But if it's in an environment where I feel less good, my whole sensory system will have a little signal time to leave, time to get out.

Melissa (Host) | 527964 - 554142
Yeah, I think that's the interesting thing about these labels of introvert, like you're A or your B and it's like, no, there's a lot in between. So I know that one of the things that you help people with is these boxes. And even in the way in which you answered, who am I? Even just putting a label on it puts me like it's a box. So how do you feel about those boxes, introvert and extrovert, just having labels in general?

Diane (Guest) | 554276 - 593900
I think at the same time, I understand the value of labels that I use them, but I don't have particularly a limitation always associated with them. But it helps us track things and it helps us understand things. The part of me that loves teaching and loves conveying information, I feel like it's a useful tool, but when people begin to cling to them and identify them in a certain way, then it becomes a little bit more challenging. So I'm not crazy about saying this is all you are, but I can see the value of using it to help us understand so that we can know ourselves better.

Melissa (Host) | 594430 - 595802
Yeah, that makes sense.

Jessica (Host) | 595936 - 615310
I'd like to go back to the second part of the question, this experience of having access to all of these channels. What kind of environment did that girl grow up in? And what was your journey to really showing up as you are now in the world where you use these as your superpowers?

Diane (Guest) | 615470 - 679878
Well, I think this speaks to this inside outside contrast that we had talked about right at the beginning, that for whatever reason, the primary connection that I had to this what you guys are calling the inner rebel, like what everybody has different names for, right? It's like calling Source Muse, all the CEOs call it Gut, all of these different things. This was kind of my first caregiver is kind of what I feel because it came online at a time where this was in the late 70s, early eighty s, and it came into sharp resolution when I was watching this famine commercial. They were showing Ethiopia and poverty and children that were starving and looking for their moms. And I had sort of like this break, like, this was the world I'm in. And when I told my parents about it, I was confused and distraught. And I'm like, what are we going to do? Maybe four or five at the time.

Melissa (Host) | 679964 - 681026
Oh my gosh.

Diane (Guest) | 681138 - 818100
And of course they're like, they're there panicked, right? Call your dad. So dad came in and my dad actually had, I think, a pretty good answer, which was that, well, this is not your job right now. Your job is to be a kid and you let the adults take care of it. Which I think is not a bad answer, all considered, but it still didn't address the real thing that was happening, which in me was like all the lights getting turned on at the same time. Like I felt like, wake up. And I joke that I've been up ever since, and I realized that they don't know what to do either. There was this whole sort of we call it downloads now, right? But like, oh. And I think it actually helped me kind of make clear what was in me versus what was happening in this. And it's taken me a long time. I still don't know, but I walk with this sort of, what's my place in this? How do I fit in the place? And I don't really understand why we're talking about poverty and not helping it. Why are we shooting videos about it and allowing it to continue? So these are the kind of questions that I've been walking with for a long time. So there's this sort of inner rebel that woke up very early. But I grew up. I'm Asian, right? And so in my upbringing and it's a first generation immigrant family, I'm the only child on almost both sides at that time. And there's a lot of expectation on me from all the sacrifices and all the ancestral lineage that has come before. And I could feel that also. It was really actually quite heavy, the expectation to take the opportunities that I've been given and make good on them and make them proud and make it worth it. And so to be dutiful and a good student, to obey the elders and take care of things, be diligent and conscientious, is kind of this is the job description, I feel like, that I was given.

Jessica (Host) | 818630 - 819378
Yeah.

Diane (Guest) | 819544 - 822290
And so, yeah, I followed that a lot.

Jessica (Host) | 822440 - 835794
And you went down a fairly traditional path at first. You got your degree in biochemistry, and you actually worked in pharmaceuticals for a while. What pivoted you? What made you realize that that wasn't the path?

Diane (Guest) | 835922 - 889010
So making sure that when in an Asian household, usually some traditional first generation households, you've had a choice. You could be doctor, lawyer, engineer, or accountant. Those were your choices. So I chose doctor. And I knew that that's actually what I wanted to be for a while, something in this sort of helping profession, because they were set to know things. I'm like, oh, I want to be part of the group that knows things and is in charge. Maybe they can teach me what I need to do, what my place is in all of this stuff. And so biochemistry was the past. I actually was going to either be a musician I was actually a saxophone player, a pretty decent one. Yeah. And so I was like, if I'm trying to break my parents heart, then I'm going to be a musician. This is every Asian parents nightmare.

Jessica (Host) | 889090 - 893434
Okay, didn't you marry a musician? You married a musician, didn't you?

Diane (Guest) | 893552 - 894220
Okay.

Melissa (Host) | 894830 - 922290
You figured out a way to have it anyway. But I think this is such an interesting point to just pause on for a moment is, can I be who I want to be and break my parents heart? Or do I go the route that they want me to go? Now, I know that that's not everyone's experience with their parents, but a lot of people, a lot of children. I know that's something that I've been navigating of. Can I be who I am even though I know it breaks my parents heart? And that is a mountain to climb?

Diane (Guest) | 923910 - 927498
I felt a lot of pressure. Yeah, I felt a lot of pressure.

Melissa (Host) | 927534 - 933880
Yeah. Well, it sounds like a lot of pressure. So how have you navigated that? So you didn't choose musician, you just married one instead.

Diane (Guest) | 936250 - 940422
We use the back door. Use the backdoor you went in the back door on that one?

Melissa (Host) | 940476 - 942860
Yeah. I see what you did there.

Jessica (Host) | 943550 - 946506
Still doing a very cool thing with your life, though, I have to say.

Diane (Guest) | 946608 - 1009694
Well, this is, I think, where life was like, oh, you need to start to make a choice. Because I was going down this path, my trajectory was to be MDPhD. This will make everybody happy, right? And I got a research grant to go to Vietnam for my third year. Waterloo has this wonderful co op program and so I was able to use that time to go to Vietnam and do a research project. And it was there that I encountered some Chinese medicine and I'm like, oh, this exists. This is 20 years ago. This is like 1995 that I went to Vietnam. And at the time I was also doing yoga, so I was already getting little dips into other modalities. And it was then that while I was working, I graduated and I was still going to do it. And an advisor before I applied, I was hesitant, so I approached him, like, I don't know. I don't know about being an MDPH. D. I don't know about research. He's like, I think you like people too much. I'm like no, I don't like people. I want to help the world.

Melissa (Host) | 1009892 - 1011130
I'm an introvert.

Diane (Guest) | 1011210 - 1061950
I'm an introvert. And I also don't know about prescribing drugs and surgery and antibiotics and corticosteroids my whole life, because when I was with some other doctors, that's what they were doing all day, basically. And he's like, if you're not sure about that, you better rethink your career. That was a pivotal moment. There were some other things in there too, but I really started to take a few steps back, and that's when naturopathic medicine started to enter the scene as a thing, as a choice. And it was a perfect kind of placement for me because it was still, in a way, respectable. You were still like a doctor per se, right? And there was still some sort of shingle you could hang out. But it gave me some flexibility and it gave me some space to explore what I felt like. I needed more room to explore.

Melissa (Host) | 1062530 - 1084418
I'm feeling like this energy of like, my body is feeling boxed in as you're describing what your path was supposed to be, and then as soon as you saw, like, it's almost like an exhale or just like, oh, okay, there's more. It's like an expansiveness and more possibility, and I get to continue to feel my way around this versus this is your path.

Jessica (Host) | 1084594 - 1121714
What I love is that you still blew up that box. I feel like you still which brings me to my second two part question, because I really want to get into your work and into this idea of healing. So what is healing to you? Why do we bother? Why do we heal? And the second part to that question is you started this journey as a Naturopath, and you have developed a very unique philosophy and approach to your work. And I'm curious how that came about.

Diane (Guest) | 1121832 - 1220130
I think this is such a multilayered kind of question, but it is actually almost one question because the healing and how I practice are very related. When I started even doing Naturopathic medicine, I don't know how familiar people are with it, but it's basically like the general practitioner of alternative remedies, right? So instead of using drugs and surgery, our modalities are acupuncture, herbs, nutrition supplements, Chinese medicine. And so it just felt like a different toolkit. But then still looking at mainly physical and acute concerns. I did it for a while, and I'm like, this isn't addressing and it's not reaching into the areas that I see that people are really suffering, that are really hurting. Partially, sure, but it's like, comparatively, there is so much more on the table here. And so that's how and why I started to connect the dots. How I see healing is that we're connecting dots in different parts of our bodies, and then it's a microcosm with a macrocosm of everything more wholeness here, brings out our medicine. I think that one way that I've talked about what's inside of us is that when we cultivate this kind of unique thing that's inside of us, this is our personal medicine. When we nurture it, it brings it out, and it's available to everyone. And you never know who's going to need your medicine and whose medicine you might need. And so just doing it changes the terrain.

Jessica (Host) | 1220790 - 1308810
You talked about connecting the dots, and this is something that I see you do masterfully. And it's actually a question that I had for you because I see you when we work together, this ability. And I think this is the different channels that you were talking about. You have this ability no matter what I'm talking about. So I'll just give you a taste of what I do when I see Diane. I used to show up in your office. Now it's a virtual room. I think I still owe you, like, a costco size case of Kleenex. But I show up in your virtual office, and I will just vomit a million things of what I am currently processing and thinking about and dealing with and working through as I do. And Diane just sits there patiently and listens. And at the end of it, you have this ability to find the thread, to connect those dots, to see the underlying theme, or two themes that are bridging. All of the vomit, all of these different ideas that I've brought to the table together, distilling it down to its essence, to its core, and to see how one thing links to another, to another, to another. So I think you have a particular access point or vantage point about what some of the biggest collective themes or recurring themes are that you're seeing over and over again. I'm sure we all come with our own version of the story, but I have a sense that you are able to see the thread between them, these uniting challenges that we are working through on our path to wholeness.

Diane (Guest) | 1308970 - 1342058
I'm inclined to talk about, at the very core, how simple things actually look like, if it's about connection and about acceptance, radical honesty, radical compassion for ourselves, and kind of radical courage also, I'd like to say it's not a mystery. Sometimes when we open up the box and you're like, then this dot connects to this dot connects to this dot. It's not nothing genius. I'm just saying they're connected and people are like and it seems so obvious to me. Right?

Jessica (Host) | 1342144 - 1346198
It is genius, but okay, yeah, what's obvious to you is your genius.

Diane (Guest) | 1346294 - 1394682
I just see how all of these things are laid bare for everybody. But for some reason, conditions, socialize, we have certain biases and beliefs that we're unconscious to all of us, including myself, that we can't see certain things at certain times because we're in it. And so just by having somebody listen carefully and open up all the screens that are available and then just sort of look plainly and have compassionate honesty for what they're seeing and reflecting it back and offering it back, this is what I'm seeing. Does this work for you? Is kind of my question. If it does, great. I'm not saying there's anything wrong. And if it doesn't, then you're equipped and you're informed and you have some understanding to do something about it.

Melissa (Host) | 1394736 - 1427542
So even when you were speaking to finding your own medicine, I literally started to tear up. I was like, oh, I'm overwhelmed with emotion of just that statement. And then you went on to speak about radical courage, and I think that it takes radical courage to be willing to find your own medicine, to be able to go down that path, to excavate, close all the screens or open them up and then figure out what they're saying. What does radical courage mean to you?

Diane (Guest) | 1427676 - 1433394
Radical courage is not a thing you can buy off the shelf at Costco.

Melissa (Host) | 1433522 - 1442906
What I wish so much easier, like bulk buy that shit, roll in a.

Diane (Guest) | 1442928 - 1446698
Flat of that and put it in your little cubby, in your little yeah.

Melissa (Host) | 1446784 - 1450220
I get like a semi truck and be like, load her up.

Diane (Guest) | 1451410 - 1494810
Radical courage is earned, is how I feel about it. A radical courage is something that builds up over time by listening to yourself and developing a deep connection to your own inner knowing. And so that you are paying attention to it, you are validating it, you are asking it questions. And then you build up this confidence and this trust in a relationship so that when it finally says, hey, time to jump. Are you sure? Remember all the times I never led you wrong or now you know what to do? That's when radical courage is available. It's not something that just shows up.

Melissa (Host) | 1494960 - 1530306
So true. This is hitting a big heartstring too. I mean, I don't need to understand it. It just is. I'm like, you're right. That's just what it is. But I think that I'm always fascinated by the relationship between courage and confidence. And we trained on this in my role as a leader, in my beauty. Counter business of like courage often precedes confidence. Like the courage to take the action, the courage to say the scary thing, the courage to lead the thing, to teach the class to whatever it is, to do the thing that scares the living shit out of you before you feel ready. Confidence?

Diane (Guest) | 1530418 - 1531030
Oh, always.

Melissa (Host) | 1531100 - 1549500
I mean, you're never ready. At least in my life. I'm like, let's jump off the cliff again. Just keep jumping. So the idea of courage really resonates with me. And that is how confidence happens. It's an earned thing through courageous acts. So you're just making me tear up a lot over here.

Diane (Guest) | 1551410 - 1577880
That's what she does. Based on what you're saying. It prompts me to make a connection between confidence and competency. That if you have competence, it's easier to be confident. And courage, I think, comes maybe more from your capacity to hold, like uncertainty and hold things. And that's different.

Melissa (Host) | 1578250 - 1584520
Say that again. I just think that needs to be repeated. It's good. I want to hear it again.

Diane (Guest) | 1586250 - 1616900
It's an unformed thought, but it feels maybe useful. I'll just toss it out here in that confidence and your competence, like something that you've built mastery in, in some way confers confidence. So like, you come into a situation, you can do something, you know how to do it. But courage is like taking a leap and you're not sure if it's going to happen, it's going to work. And that requires capacity to hold that uncertainty in some way without taking it too personally. If it doesn't work.

Melissa (Host) | 1619110 - 1620100
It'S everything.

Jessica (Host) | 1620470 - 1659178
Let's talk about that relationship to uncertainty for a second because that is certainly one that I have had to swim in for the last four years of my life, well, most of my life, but really have come face to face with it and understanding that life itself is uncertainty. That truly is the nature of life. And so our relationship to uncertainty to me, seems to be our relationship to life itself. So our capacity to really meet life as it is or where it is, is courage.

Diane (Guest) | 1659354 - 1688280
I think I follow what you're saying here for sure. And you think the more that we meet life, when we meet life, so that we can see that taking this leap into uncertainty, even if it doesn't work, might not kill us, it's going to definitely kill me this time. I call it refresh. You know, when you go into a browser and you refresh, okay, we'll try again. We meet life and it's like, oh, it didn't kill me. This gives you kind of the ability to go back and meet life again.

Melissa (Host) | 1688650 - 1716094
I found that the ability to navigate uncertainty is directly correlated with safety. Do I feel safe in the world? Do I feel safe in my body? Do I feel safe in the unknown? It's so much safety. And you obviously work with the body in your profession. This is a very loaded question, but how do you help people navigate that to really work with somebody in their body on, you're safe, you're safe here. This is the ripple effect of safety.

Diane (Guest) | 1716222 - 1798630
It's actually a fundamental link. It's actually a very fundamental link. And it's often, very often missed in what people are doing right now, in what they call mindset work. Yeah, right. It's like, oh, but if you can affirm it, it'll happen. Right. And this is oversimplified. And if you don't have a lot of trauma in your background, yeah, that's no problem. And I think why it's starting to be a particular hot point right now is that this works with a lot of cisgendered white men especially. But for anybody that has been marginalized or oppressed in any kind of way, they're going to have issues with being able to speak up and show up and just have a mindset that they're going to be safe no matter what. So this is a fundamental wiring that we are coming across as relevant now that there's more space, there's relatively more space for people to show up in that space. And to answer your question directly, how do I deal with it? We go slow. Yeah, that's actually the antidote, the remedy that we need to do whenever we encounter panic urgency, a kind of anxiety about what's going to go on rather than rush in, it's actually about slowing down, being gentle and being soft. So counterintuitive.

Melissa (Host) | 1798790 - 1819314
It's very counterintuitive because you're like, if I could just push through, if I could just rush, if I could just keep doing but then that's like less safe. I do this somatic practice. And the woman that has changed my life dramatically, she's my somatic movement coach. Literally, she'll be like, can you just get into your turtleneck and get inside of your clothes and cover yourself with a blanket? And then if you just. Need to lay there.

Diane (Guest) | 1819432 - 1820738
Why don't you do that?

Melissa (Host) | 1820904 - 1837826
And it was like, such permission for me to just be like, oh, so I don't have to steamroll this thing. That's not the answer. It's like really being gentle and being slow, but people don't want to do that because it's like, well, that's not productive.

Diane (Guest) | 1837938 - 1864014
It just speaks to a young part of ourselves, is all I had there, Melissa. I think it speaks to a very young part of ourselves that hasn't learned or hasn't been taught or modeled how to take care of our feelings and our wants and our needs and really honor them and listen to them. And that's how we get safety, by just being with them and learning from them. But I think that the rewiring that you're speaking of speaks to that.

Jessica (Host) | 1864212 - 1922798
Yeah, that's actually the connection I wanted to come back to, because you mentioned when you're talking to a client and you ask, is this working for you? Often the things that aren't working for us today worked for us as children to survive. Right. The environments that we grew up in, the lack of safety, whatever we needed to do to feel seen and loved. We build these mechanisms and survival techniques, and then those same things end up sabotaging us in our adult life or getting in the way. So what do we do with that? Because at that point, the wiring is so deep. And I know that I've been seeing you for a long time. I am someone deeply committed to my healing and my journey. And I feel like I am bumping up against the same thing over and over and over again. I'm like, Why won't this ever change? Why it's so deep? So how do we approach that as adults when we realize it's not working for us anymore?

Diane (Guest) | 1922974 - 2019938
The simple answer would be mindfulness, because it's actually about paying attention when the old patterns seep in unconsciously, when we go into, like, a habit mode of responding and reacting to things and we don't realize it. This is why what I had said before about pushing the refresh button, and sometimes I also refer to it as pulling back and taking a larger expanded lens on what's going on. Definitely these behaviors work until they don't work. And some people talk about, like, getting rid of these things. I don't think it's about getting rid of them. I think this is a tool or a way of doing things, but it doesn't need to be your only way. And so the slowing down of it, realizing, oh, my tendency is to always do this in these kinds of stressful situations and then applying a piece of consciousness, a piece of awareness, paying attention to just that spot. Sometimes I think we try to do too much. I think we have to kind of focus. Me like, okay, this little thing that I keep looking at, I'm trying to do like this this and this I'm like, well, I'm just going to take care of this first. Every time, I don't know, somebody cuts me off in line or something like I'm going to look at my reaction there and refresh. How else could I respond in that moment? And gradually the possibilities open up rather than the one lane highway. But it takes time and sometimes it's different situations. It's the very nature of the unconscious. We don't know it's there.

Jessica (Host) | 2020104 - 2040442
Can we talk about being the pattern breaker? What it means to be breaking these generational cycles of trauma and how in healing ourselves we're actually healing something much bigger than ourselves? Because that is a connection I think you have really brought to light in my life.

Diane (Guest) | 2040576 - 2063346
This, I think, speaks to the micro of our life and the macro of ancestry and generational healing because what you're speaking of in terms of cycle breaking is that has to do with patterns that have worked over generations that now no longer work or that we realize no longer serve us in some way. Right.

Jessica (Host) | 2063368 - 2065700
So similar to the little kid. Yeah.

Diane (Guest) | 2066070 - 2165300
And it extends and extends into past generations so it's actually more deeply ingrained in our survival mechanisms. If this has been just in your early life, it's hard enough, but if it's actually through multiple generations then it becomes increasingly difficult. What's interesting now, and the principles are the same as far as I can tell, is that if we just take an example of female lineage like how there's the oppression of the feminine that had to, in a way happen because of the way that society culture was structured many generations ago. To be a cycle breaker means to be present in what is actually available today in terms of relative safety for a woman to be and say and think and do what she wants with relative safety and we can forget those things but when we remember them, it's almost like breaking a promise. There's a sense of disloyalty that a lot of people talk to me about, about breaking that alliance with all of the say for example, here, females in their family. But this is what we do and if we look carefully, their job was to allow us or their role was to allow us to be alive during this time where we could have the opportunity and the resources and the capacity to change it, to upgrade it, to heal it in some way if we can. I don't know. Does that speak to your question?

Jessica (Host) | 2165670 - 2204846
It does. It's like how do you carry or how does someone carry the weight of that? When you feel called to follow that inner rebel right, to follow your truth out into the world and it goes against everything that you have been taught is safe. And it requires you to do healing on such a deep level, not just for yourself, but for generations of people. You're holding all of that in your body. I know I'm tired. I feel like it's sort of like this spiral that you kind of go deeper and deeper into. And so as I heal the outer layers, I'm like, I did it.

Diane (Guest) | 2204868 - 2205822
I healed that thing.

Jessica (Host) | 2205876 - 2216706
I'm good. Suddenly I'm getting into something and I'm like, Where did this come from? It just seems to get darker and darker and deeper and deeper. Like the places you meet yourself are.

Melissa (Host) | 2216728 - 2219634
Just like, holy shit, where was that?

Jessica (Host) | 2219752 - 2255278
And I realized that if I hadn't healed those outer layers, I would never have had the capacity to get into the deeper stuff and I would never have been able to see it. Right. You have to do that. But when does it end? Sometimes it just feels like what do you do when you're just so tired? You have healing fatigue? Is that a thing? But you still want the things that you want. And how do we not turn healing into like, I have to fix this before I can really show up in the world and be all that I am?

Diane (Guest) | 2255444 - 2326950
Yeah, I see this, but this is an important thing. I think it's the shadow side of the healers. They want to do more than their share. And it feels like a burden, and it feels fatiguing. It feels exhausting. It's common. It's common, and I've seen it and I've experienced it myself. How I would speak to that is two things. Number one is about being able to know that you are committed to the process and trust yourself that you're committed to the process. Know that you're not by slowing down and sitting down, you're not giving up. I think that's an important reminder. Oh, I'm going to sit down now is different than forget it, I'm done. I give up. Your head back from whence you came. Not that you can do that, but that's the desire, right? I think that's one piece and then the second piece is beginning to make discernment. And this is a little bit more granular a piece, but beginning to make discernment between what is truly yours, to do what your portion is and what is not. To simplify it.

Jessica (Host) | 2327100 - 2328598
How does one discern that?

Diane (Guest) | 2328684 - 2348618
Right? If it shows up directly in your life, you heal the portion of it that pertains to your life. I'm sure, like, having an exact example might be useful here, but if you understand what I mean, that there's going to be peripheral sorts of issues that arise and you don't have to deal with all of them.

Melissa (Host) | 2348704 - 2435014
I actually have a great example of that. Perfect. And it's very personal, but I had this feeling for a long time, and it was like I knew that it wasn't my direct wound, but I kept having this feeling that there was sexual trauma, that something had happened. Intuitively, it kept coming up and I was like, I really don't think it's mine, but there is something for me to look at. And I did an ancestral healing program, and in it she does constellation work. And she did a full constellation in our last call, and she just was like, whatever energy comes up, the strongest, we're going to all do. And they did my family's maternal line, sexual trauma, and without going too far into that afterward. And I've done a lot of other work around this piece in my life, around growing up in a very conservative religious family and sexual shame and things like that. But that piece that kept coming up in that family constellation, it has not come up since because that piece was mine to heal. And it was very clear in that work, it was like, this is your piece. And it wasn't. I mean, maybe more will come up, who knows? But when you're sharing, I was like, that felt like such a relevant example of this piece of your lineage, this piece of your story, this piece of your body is yours to heal. And it wasn't bigger than that at least yet.

Diane (Guest) | 2435132 - 2438630
Yeah, constellations are so powerful. So powerful.

Melissa (Host) | 2439310 - 2441030
Yeah, so powerful.

Diane (Guest) | 2441110 - 2456042
If it shows up in your life as something that is calling to you to address you, do that part. That's enough. You have to do everybody else's. It's okay, it's enough. That's what I've witnessed and experienced and observed.

Jessica (Host) | 2456186 - 2468340
I'm wondering what are some of those primary pieces that have shown up in your journey that you have been working through? And what are some of the lessons that have come from that that you're willing to share with us?

Diane (Guest) | 2468870 - 2537670
I think there's two theme areas that when you're saying, oh, I thought I dealt with this, I'm like, there's two main areas that keep surfacing for me, and that is around abuse of power and around call it glamour. I don't know what else to call it. It's like ego and status. Those are my demons that I've been dealing with for a long time, for whatever reason. And the struggles that I've had is that life will present to me different opportunities to be like, hey, it'll tempt me to go down these corridors and like, oh, but what you want you could just have right now. You know, all these answers. You could just, I don't know, make a course and make tons of money or I don't know, whatever. It's all available. There's checkpoints that I have for myself and that I'm like, let me just give that another moment and I have to be really with it for a little while longer. Untangle it. But if there's two areas that sometimes I'll bump into in the middle of the night and I'm like, you guys, again, it's those two.

Jessica (Host) | 2537820 - 2557438
I am interested in untangling it for a second and also just interested in your ability to navigate that moment and check in with yourself. What is happening there? Is it asking, is this the right opportunity? Is this authentic to me. I have other priorities, like, what is going on inside of you that says, this doesn't feel right?

Diane (Guest) | 2557604 - 2569122
What I go back to very often, very often, I think it's a part of my, I don't know, individuated ego that wants power and glory thing. Right?

Jessica (Host) | 2569176 - 2569586
Sure.

Diane (Guest) | 2569688 - 2585240
But then there's this other part of me that is part of all of us that is part of something much bigger. And it's that part that taps me on the shoulder and says, hey, sit down. Is this in service to all? Like, again.

Jessica (Host) | 2586010 - 2587942
Oh, there we go. Yeah, right.

Diane (Guest) | 2587996 - 2623554
And I'm like, right, okay. Take a moment to see if the calculation and this has always been my calculation great if it serves you, does it also serve something greater than you? Does it serve others also, or is it just for yourself alone? It doesn't mean it has to be some altruistic actor, but is it hurting anybody? And sometimes it is. I mean, especially if you're in a position as a doctor or somebody in a position of perceived authority in culture and society. I don't take that lightly. And so these are all points that I need to take a minute and check whether all my parts are happy with me.

Jessica (Host) | 2623752 - 2624500
Yeah.

Melissa (Host) | 2624950 - 2654058
That just brings the deep intention into what you're doing. You're clear on your bigger why, your vision, whatever we want to call that your bigger purpose here, to be able to use that as your reference point of is this in service to the thing that I'm in service to? Yes or no? And I know that it's not always just that, like, it's complicated, but to have that checkpoint of, is this in service to what I'm in service to in a greater level, that's my compass for my decisions.

Jessica (Host) | 2654234 - 2678150
I know that there's so much that you teach and do with your clients, but if there was one practice our listeners could take away in relation to examining their lives and getting unstuck in moving a little bit closer towards what they're really dreaming for themselves, what would you suggest someone do? It's a little action.

Diane (Guest) | 2678890 - 2702240
It's compassion. It's maybe counter to culture and society right now. It's something to do. This is maybe a way to be. But I feel like in all of the circumstances that I've come across, when we engage and relate to ourselves with compassion, it changes things. When we're gentle with each other, it changes things.

Jessica (Host) | 2703250 - 2706880
I love that. Thank you.

Melissa (Host) | 2707490 - 2711598
We always end in an extreme love fest because we're like, no, I love you more.

Jessica (Host) | 2711684 - 2712510
I love you more.

Melissa (Host) | 2712580 - 2739578
So Jessica has shared you with me and has sung your praises, and I will say that you did fill that hype. And I just wanted to say thank you. I could see how we could spend hours and hours in your company, and this is just scratching the surface of your medicine. Thank you for sharing yourself with us. It's been a pleasure to meet you. And I'm sure that our listeners have gathered so much for themselves as well.

Diane (Guest) | 2739744 - 2740810
Those are awesome.

Jessica (Host) | 2740960 - 2789526
You have such a succinct, profound way of articulating deep truths and sort of what you've done for me my whole life. I go, blah, blah, blah, and you're like, ding. You just drop this very deep, compassionate truth bomb that blows my mind. So thank you for sharing your gifts with us today and showing up and being vulnerable. And I really love in talking to you today how much you do walk the talk, even in what you just shared about having to navigate these spaces where anyone else may go, like opportunity. You really do check in with yourself and your values and put into practice everything that you preach. And I have no doubt that you are transforming the world and can't wait to see what comes next. I really love you.

Diane (Guest) | 2789628 - 2791890
Love you too. Thank you. Bye.