Christine Pride: Daring to Pivot - Living Beyond Expectations and Discovering Your Deeper 'Why'

Speaker 1: 0:02

To even question what you've been told is true is incredibly courageous. It doesn't always feel like courage. What looks like courage to other people, For me it feels like survival. This is our personal medicine. If I'm surrounded by thinkers, by lovers, by passion, by integrity, then I really do think that I know who I am. There is a piece that is indescribable when you're being who you are and you're living your purpose, When I come to the end of my life and be like I didn't live the life I was meant to live, Can I be so comfortable in the unknown and so comfortable in that uncertainty that every version of it is going to be okay?

Speaker 1: 0:39

This is the Inner Rebel Podcast.

Speaker 2: 0:49

We are so excited to introduce our guest today. We have Christine Pride, who is an accomplished and talented writer, editor and season publishing veteran who has held high-profile editorial posts at major trade imprints including Double Day, broadway, crown, hyperion and Simon Schuster, and helped publish a range of amazing books, including a number of New York Times bestsellers. In 2021, christine made the transition into being an author herself and, alongside her friend, joe Piazza, she co-authored the hottest book of 2021, the bestselling novel We Are Not Like Them, which was a Good Morning America Book Club pick and listed as a best book pick of 2021 by Harper's Bazaar and Real Simple. Christine is also a freelance editorial consultant.

Speaker 2: 1:38

She also pens the column Race Matters for a cup of Joe, which is so good, and Christine and Joe are about to release their much-anticipated new book, you Were Always Mine, which I just had the privilege to read and is so, so good, and that hit shelves on June 13th next week. Christine, through your books and your column, i see you as such a catalyst for fostering more vulnerable, honest and healing dialogues about race and class identity and relationships between friends and families and communities, so I want to thank you for the richness and generosity of your work. We're so honored. We feel really excited to have you with us today, so thank you for joining us.

Speaker 3: 2:23

Well, that was quite the intro, and I'm so happy to be here And I love having these deep, rich, honest, vulnerable conversations. I mean, as you said, that's why I write, that's why I work in publishing, to publish other books that foster these kind of conversations, and so I'm so excited to have one of them with you here today We warn Christine that we go deep.

Speaker 2: 2:45

We do.

Speaker 1: 2:46

There's no surface level. I'm in a book club that we're very serious. It's not like a social wine drinking I mean it is also but we really read the books and have thorough discussions. And I told them we were interviewing you and they're like OK, well, we're going to read the book and we're going to make the podcast a requirement also, and I was like this is so fun.

Speaker 2: 3:04

I love that.

Speaker 1: 3:06

I know They were so excited They're like, oh my gosh, this is such a great you know, and I know you probably get that all the time, but it was fun to integrate this into a piece of my personal life too 100%, And that's the beauty of book clubs I love.

Speaker 3: 3:17

You said that you have like a serious book club which I think you can drink the wine and have the snacks and be serious too, I like to think. But I love this idea that you're gathering really to have a meaningful conversation about books. And I love book clubs because they start about the book but then they ideally venture into people's personal lives and they can serve as a catalyst and a launching point to share and talk about the real stuff, so to speak, And so I'm a big fan of book clubs.

Speaker 3: 3:48

for that reason, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 3:50

So, speaking of the real stuff, we ask a question to our guests. You know, we just read a list of your accomplishments. We understand how the world sees you, but we're also very curious how you experience being yourself. So you can answer this any way that you like, but we'd like to ask you who are you and how is that different from who you thought or were told you were supposed to be?

Speaker 3: 4:14

Oh, we're really going deep, fast and really thoughtful, and I'm going to answer on the fly here. You know that's such an interesting but obviously hard question, because I think who are you on one level is something that's always changing right.

Speaker 3: 4:30

I mean especially when you think of a whole lifetime. I'm about to be 47 this summer And I feel like there's been many iterations of who I am. At the same time, i feel like as a person I've stayed remarkably the same, and it's so interesting to me because, especially you know, we are not like them.

Speaker 3: 4:50

My first book with Joe was about a lifelong friendship and I have so many friends that fall into that category, right, friends that I have been close with since, you know, first grade, second grade and so on, and with that you can really have kind of a mirror reflection, right, have how you're the same or different, because you've had somebody to witness all those iterations of yourself and all the different experiences and how they've changed you. And so I think it is remarkable that I have felt like myself, if that makes sense, from such a young age, and that has not really deviated a lot. I've obviously been changed and grown by experiences, but I feel really lucky in that way that who I am, the core of who I am, remain the same. I don't know if that answers your question, but I would say who I am is steady. That would be an adjective that I would use to describe how I move in the world.

Speaker 2: 5:50

I'm curious what the through line is you know throughout your life that helps you connect to that sense of who you are. What is that experience of being you that you identify with?

Speaker 3: 6:02

I think it's a real sense of self And again, i think this is something that I was sort of lucky to be born with.

Speaker 3: 6:09

Some of that is innate, that you just have some sense of self-possession, and I think it's something that my parents really nurtured in me as well, a confidence to believe in both my capabilities and you know confidence, but also a real concern with the outside world, as it were.

Speaker 3: 6:31

I think one of the things that I've struggled with the most in that capacity that I think a lot of women won't relate to, is this sense of what is expected of us as women And I'm as much of a you know sort of ingrained people, please, or as the next person, right. So the idea of I want to be guided by what is real and right and true for me, but I also loathe the idea of anybody being upset with me, unhappy with me, disappointed in me, and so I think that's where that self-possession comes in right, where you can weather that a little bit better, even though those messages are so insidious when they come at us. And, like I said, it's really ingrained in me. But I have that sort of counterbalance of really being true to what I believe and what I want and with such a balance throughout life And, i think, honestly, something that you get better at over time I found that, luckily, to be the case.

Speaker 1: 7:33

Yeah, it's one of the great things about Life After 40 is you start to care less about other people's opinions. But it sounds like you've really had to untangle that people pleasing or rebel against it in order to live more authentically, even though your authentic voice feels so innate for you. So I'm curious has it been age that has helped you navigate that, or what are some of the other things that you've had to, or that you've called upon in that process of being less paralyzed by people pleasing?

Speaker 3: 8:02

Yeah, I think it's age. I mean, as you said, there is a shift that happens. And you know, like when you talk to teenagers today and you say, oh my God, just wait. And it's so condescending And I remember being a teenager and I'm like, ah, I mean I felt that same way, I think, in my 20s and 30s when people would say, when you get to 40, you're not going to care and you're going to be liberated and all the things that they tell us. But turns out it's true, There is a real shift And I think the actual shift comes more with this idea that it doesn't work.

Speaker 3: 8:33

I think that's what you realize, right, Like you can spend like nine people pleasing or contorting yourself or trying to measure up or chasing these. You know illusions of perfection or all the things. But if it worked, that might be a different story, right, If everybody did that and then everybody accomplished all those goals and was perfectly happy, we'd keep doing it. But I think by the time you get to a point in your life you realize all the energy that sucks up is sort of pointless And you don't have that same level of energy anymore, frankly. So you have to really be clear about where you're spending your emotions and your time, And I just don't have the bandwidth, I think, to do that anymore.

Speaker 2: 9:20

And that's actually a theme that runs through the book. It's a struggle for a lot of your characters. There's all these characters who are hiding aspects of their identity or they have a fear of being abandoned, right if they're seen for who they really are. So, given that there's this through line for you of actually feeling quite connected to your truth and quite consistently authentic, I'm curious why this is a theme that you're drawn to in your work.

Speaker 3: 9:46

Yeah, that is so interesting that you say that because, especially for our first book, we are not like them. Riley is our black character and Jen is our white character in the book And people often asked me specifically are you Riley? Or how are you like Riley Are? people make these assumptions. I mean that happens all the time, right when writers are writing fiction Is the character you, or what parts of the character are you? And to some degree with our second book too, with our main character, Cinnamon Hance, who's also a black woman.

Speaker 3: 10:17

I think it's really interesting that we created characters that are so different from us And Riley is so different from me, And mainly in the way that you describe that Riley has a really hard time accessing her emotions and talking about her emotions and admitting vulnerability And she hides behind her ambition and her drive to succeed and to get to the next level right. For so many people It's all about the chase, And the same with Cinnamon, the main character in our second novel. She has a lot of trauma in her past that she feels like she'll be judged for, And so she doesn't, especially as a black woman, right when you fall into the stereotypes and tropes of having certain kinds of backgrounds, And so she doesn't want to reveal those things. And as a person living in the world, I feel the exact opposite. Right, I'm a person. This is why I so support the mission of your podcast, Because I'm just a person who feels like we have to be honest, We have to be vulnerable, We have to live our truth.

Speaker 3: 11:19

Nothing ever comes from pretending I couldn't deny an emotion that came over me if I wanted to. I don't understand people who can kind of pack things away and compartmentalize them. Sometimes I wish I could do that, maybe even a little better, but it is what it is, And so I think I've subconsciously really created characters that are so different for me but that I want to help get to an emotional place that they feel freer, And that has kind of been the arc for both of these characters through their journeys in the story right To get to a point where they can trust more, be more open, more in touch And, what's fascinating, how that comes to be even with out a level of direct intention.

Speaker 1: 12:06

One that sounds like you're using your innate natural gift. Sometimes we can't even recognize the things that we're so good at And we're like, oh, if it comes so naturally to me, could I really even make a difference with that thing? But it sounds like that's exactly what you're doing, and I loved when you wrote in the epilogue about choosing yourself, being clear on what you want and trusting your intuition, and as I read that I was like these are the three things that I think women struggle with the most or at least in my experience as a coach, and that choosing yourself as often at the foundation of everything. I'm curious how do you navigate choosing yourself and being clear on what you want and trusting your intuition in your life?

Speaker 3: 12:45

It's a daily challenge. I mean, i think one thing that really helps is community and to have people around you that ground you. I mean that's been really important to me and that is why I wanted to write a book about friendship And I mentioned that I have a lot of lifelong friends, because that's such a force for good in people's lives, or it can be, and that is a sort of checks and balance system for me to have people that I trust, who can tell me if I'm not choosing myself, or who can help reflect that back to me or when I express an intuition and if I'm about to go against it. It's like, well, no, you said that You felt this way, or remember how you thought this about a person or a choice or would have you, and I think it's really difficult to live life in a vacuum and to live your life by those three principles that we just talked about in a vacuum, and so really having people in my life and a partner and a family that helped me with that has been really beneficial.

Speaker 2: 13:52

Well, I think that's really interesting, because I think a lot of reasons why people tend to go against themselves is for that sense of belonging or is to appease others, right? So that speaks, i think, a lot to the quality and the kinds of people that you surround yourself with And how well you feel known and seen by them, that you would trust them in that way.

Speaker 3: 14:14

And that makes a big difference, i think, having people that you can be your true self around and it's not easy to do. And again, that is one of the things that came up between our two characters, jen and Riley, in the first book, where it's how intimate and true a relationship can you really have if you're not bringing your full self to it. And these are two women who have been lifelong friends, who get to their 30s and realize because of dramatic external circumstances but that happens to us right, that realize or forced to realize that their relationship isn't as close as they might have thought it was. And I think that happens to a lot of us in friendships or in family or in marriages right, where you go along and you go along and you think you have this good relationship and then something happens or you just kind of internally realize that you are not bringing your full self into this relationship And that's a really hard thing to shift, but it's the most beneficial or impactful things to shift right.

Speaker 3: 15:25

There's no point at least in my mind in being in a relationship that is at best superficial but at worst is damaging to you because you feel like you're constantly approaching it with a level of pretense, and I think that can be really damaging to people. So I really try not to do that in my life And, if anything, to model that so other people don't do that.

Speaker 1: 15:50

Yeah, And I think it's so tricky because you don't always know you're doing it. When you talked about code switching, which I think both Jess and I learned about that term for the first time.

Speaker 2: 16:00

There's an article in Cup of Joe just for clarity, christine, as a column, race Matters And there is this article on code switching, which was a new concept for both of us.

Speaker 1: 16:10

As I was looking into that, i'm like that was one of the greatest sources of my anxiety.

Speaker 1: 16:15

I had pretty horrible anxiety for really up until my early 30s and I'm 40 now And that whole principle of I have to be this version of me over here in order to be loved And I have to be this version over here in order to be loved or at least that's what I believe And you realize that you mold yourself to be this different person throughout your life And it's the subconscious thing that's happening until you start to become aware of the disconnect that you feel internally And I fundamentally felt like something was wrong with me and who I actually was, and that I had to do that Because if I was actually me, then I would for sure lose my sense of love and belonging. And so just to bring it back to the fact that you have had such solid friendships and communities and what a critical component that is in life is that feeling of I get to be all of me and that's actually what you want from me. You don't want me to try to be somebody different, but it's so hard, it's one of the hardest things.

Speaker 3: 17:17

Well, Melissa, let me. Am I allowed to ask questions on this podcast to switch it around, Of course, because I'm so curious.

Speaker 1: 17:22

No, just kidding Yeah.

Speaker 3: 17:26

How you sort of broke out of that mold then right, because I think that, as you said, it's really hard to do and there are a lot of different ways that people do that or sort of shook into doing that, whether it be a life changing experience or therapy or a friendship, that makes all the difference. So what was?

Speaker 1: 17:42

it for you. There's about 9,000 examples I can give honestly. But one of the biggest things that I've done is gotten community and intimate groups of women So I do masterminds that I participated in. I have done a lot of sacred feminine work in really safe, intimate groups of women with trauma informed facilitators, where the expectation was that you show up vulnerably and instead of hiding, and the facilitator knows how to hold that container in a way where you actually are safe. And doing that over the last eight years on repeat has allowed me to go deeper and deeper and realize that I mean some of it is true. I have lost my belonging the more that I have become myself. So it's not an illusion, it's not like oh, i made that whole thing up, it actually happened. So forgiving forgiving when those things have happened, but also really sticking out very purposefully communities where that's the norm, and also now I facilitate those in my business, and so I agree with you wholeheartedly that you cannot do it without the mirror of other people.

Speaker 3: 18:44

Yeah, and I think it's interesting that you say that in a good point that there's not not a cost, right, like I think, in terms of being vulnerable and showing up as your full self. I mean, we tell people to do this and we want them to do it And it's still net net. You know a good thing, but nothing is 100% good or 100% bad. But people should be prepared for the fact that, as you say, when you, when you are self-possessed and when you show up as your real self, and when you are not a people pleaser, and when you are willing to put yourself first and follow your intuition and all these things, there can be collateral fallout to that and people should be ready for that with the understanding that still, the benefits outweigh those costs.

Speaker 1: 19:27

Yeah, but I think it's important to be honest about that because I don't even think it's. If I think it's, when I've yet to find an example of someone that's really navigated through this and stepped fully into themself that hasn't had some collateral. You bring in so much more joy and so much more truth and the community that you really want to be surrounding you, and maybe you have a different partner that you call into your life, but I've seen a lot of marriages dismantle. I've seen some pretty big friendships dismantle. I've had two really heartbreaking friendship breakups that I've navigated and so I think it's. It's almost inevitable, but to your point it's. It's worth it because who you get to be and who you get to be surrounded with on the other side of it is it's like I can breathe. I can stop pretending. This is so refreshing.

Speaker 3: 20:10

Cole hardedly agree with that.

Speaker 2: 20:12

I actually think this is exactly what the book you are always mine is about, and it was one of the major conversations that I took from the book, which is the one that the character seemed to be having between the systems and social constructs that prescribe our identities and our sense of self, and how that conflicts with our need for love and belonging, who we think we need to be in order to have that acceptance because of those societal narratives, and how those narratives actually end up obstructing connection. both of the women in the book do have to make sacrifices to make the choices that are right for themselves and lose things as a result of that and gain things as a result of that. So I'm curious what is the discussion that you hope people are having after reading this?

Speaker 3: 20:58

Exactly that. I mean, we are saddled with so many expectations, and particularly as women, and then you add a layer of how you move in the world with regard to your race on top of that, right, and how it affects things. And what we really like to show in our novels, both our first book and in this one, is what happens when you turn those troops on their head right And look at those common scenarios from a different perspective, right? So we always hear of white parents or white mothers fostering or adopting black children or raising black children or brown children, and we rarely see the reverse or even think about the reverse. So the premise in and of itself, at face value, whether you read a word of the book or not, i think is a provocative premise of what happens when a black woman finds a white baby and takes this baby in, right? Like that raises thoughts and reactions, instinctively, right, that are so interesting.

Speaker 3: 22:03

But the bigger question even is what are like responsibilities to each other and how do we make decisions about what kind of families we have that are outside the conventional norms? right? You didn't have a two parent family with parents matched you and you matched your own gender, and all the things like the quote unquote norms Each time you fall outside of that very narrow box. There's collateral to that And I think about that a lot. As a single woman well, i'm in a relationship, but I still identify as a single woman, even in a relationship, and a person who has no children. I'm outside the box in a lot of ways, as our characters are, and so it's really interesting to look at that perspective of outside the box.

Speaker 1: 22:59

Yeah, and it's so fascinating because most people are outside that box.

Speaker 2: 23:03

I think everyone's outside that box, right. That's the thing. It's a ridiculously yeah everyone, you're right, not most people.

Speaker 1: 23:10

Everyone's outside the box, really, yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:12

Yeah, but I think that's what I mean when I say that. I think the question of the book is how are we choosing these constructs, these narratives, these systems over our humanity, you know, over our need for simply being loved and having connection right Now, totally?

Speaker 3: 23:30

And also, how do we defy expectations in a way, or at least to buck up against expectations, right That we don't expect this scenario, or if a woman gets pregnant, we expect her to have the baby, or somebody gets married, we expect them to stay married, no matter what. Or?

Speaker 1: 23:49

you know, we have all of these very extreme rules.

Speaker 3: 23:54

I mean, that's really what they come down to Rules. Maybe they're unspoken, but they are rules in our society about how it should be, and anybody that falls outside of that is wrong. And thus it's really hard to make choices against those expectations. And that's what Cinnamon runs up against. Right, she loves this baby and she wants to help this baby. She wants to even help the baby's birth mother without giving too much away. But what kind of cost does that come to her? What's that gonna cost her and is she willing to pay? it Is kind of the driving force of the narrative, but that question is applicable in a universal sense to us all.

Speaker 3: 24:39

And so if you ask, what's the question that I hope people wrestle with in the book and I think that's it What are you willing to pay? What cost are you willing to deal with for the love that you want, for the life that you want, for the community that you want? as you said, melissa, right To get to the other side of whatever your crucible is, what are you willing to sacrifice along the way? That's a really vital interrogation that people have to do on their own lives And you can't put your head in the sand, as a lot of us try to do, and pretend that we don't have to do. That work right.

Speaker 2: 25:14

You wrote, and I think the same article about code switching you wrote who do you believe sets the expectations for how we can be and why and how do you think we can create a world expansive enough that we're all allowed to be authentic? That is a big question. I know that that's really a good question for us all to see.

Speaker 3: 25:32

I'm like why did I ask such a hard question?

Speaker 2: 25:34

Yeah, Pop quiz. Where are you sitting today with that question? I?

Speaker 3: 25:42

mean, i'll give you a very recent and it's gonna seem trite example, but it adds up to something bigger, which is, you know, i sent out a mass email last night about the book, one of those terrible, shameless self promotion kind of emails that all authors have to do, that it or torture us. And I'm such a perfectionist, right, like so I had to figure out Mailchimp and all the things. I tested the links. I proofread the email like blah, blah, blah And the links. None of the links in this email work. And it's not really my fault, i think it's a Mailchimp issue.

Speaker 3: 26:13

But I spent the entire morning, or good part of it, like spiraling about this, because I think those messages of perfectionism and expectations and being accountable to yourself and showing up every day and all those things seem to coalesce in this stupid I will admit email situation.

Speaker 3: 26:35

But it was about so much more than that, right. It's about what we can forgive ourselves for and have grace for and lower the stakes in our lives for, and I think that's what we need to do in terms of that big question, which is just constantly check with ourselves about why we're having reactions to things and if it is something that's externally motivated or internally motivated, and how we're showing up to our work and our relationships, and that adds up to me to kind of a constant vigilance, right. So I could say this morning, like what is that about And why do I care so much about this And am I worried about what people think? You know I mean all of those questions, but they happen over and over again, in both little ways and email and in big ways. You know this relationship isn't working And so we just have to really stay focused on that conversation with ourselves.

Speaker 1: 27:35

Yeah, well, and I appreciate you just talking about such a normal everyday moment. That happens when you're actually showing up and you're actually putting yourself out there and you're doing the thing that scares you and you say shamelessly, selling yourself. I've been in sales for 18 years and helping women embrace what enrolling people is, versus like forcing your ideas on them. But the fact that you've achieved on the outside such a profound level of success I mean I shouldn't put in quotes but like as defined by a capitalistic, patriarchal society you know we get these accolades and we have this success and yet we're still so human, no matter what we've achieved on the outside. And I'm actually curious has the pressure that you've put on yourself increased now that you have had such success with your last book and you have a new book coming out? How are you feeling about that? Is that getting worse now that you are more of a public figure?

Speaker 3: 28:33

Yeah, it's interesting because I've been thinking about this a lot and I think the short answer to that question is yes, only because it's a very different and, i think, an illuminating experience, and I'm glad I'm going through it. But it's a very different experience being sort of front facing and public, right. Then it was for me as an editor which is what I did for 20 years before I became an author which is, you're sort of hidden behind the scenes and you're just rooting for your authors, of course, and working so hard on their behalf, but you're not the face of anything. You feel ownership and connection, but it's not yours, right? And so it's a very different experience to put a project out there and to be judged about it.

Speaker 3: 29:14

And I think what I have been struggling with in trying to find a balance of is we'd wanna tell ourselves that we don't care what other people think, right, we try to stay off Instagram or not compare ourselves to others, or we say you're doing your own journey and who cares what anybody else is doing, and all of those things which I think are healthy messages.

Speaker 3: 29:35

But then you publish a book, and I'm sure there are other corollaries, but in my case, you publish a book and it really does matter what people think, like you can tell yourself it doesn't, but it actually does right, like, and this whole if one person loves your book, then that's enough is a lovely idea. But it's not actually true, because you need lots of people to love your book right To have a career as a writer. And so there is that sort of dichotomy that I have been struggling with, which is having like a healthy sense of holding myself and I did the best job that I could, and I can't internalize so much people's reactions to the book and luckily so far they're positive, but we'll see versus. I have to care about what people think but still protect myself worth, and that is hard work. It's a not easy thing to do.

Speaker 1: 30:31

Yeah, and I think it's lifelong. The more that you step into a higher calling, the more that you claim your true gifts, the more that you get bold about them, the more public facing you are, the more that you're not hidden anymore, the more that you are at risk of other people's opinions really hurting you. I mean, i have a lot of thoughts on this. It's something that I navigate all the time, and I help women navigate is is it worth it to you to stay hidden and behind the scenes? What's the cost of that? And never having known what it feels like to write the book, to use your voice, to make the difference that you know you're here to make?

Speaker 1: 31:10

And a lot of people choose to stay hidden or to stay smaller. We call it small town Susie in the mastermind that I'm a part of is we stay our small town Susie because it feels safer. But the cost is never knowing what it feels like to publish a bestselling book and have the controversial conversations that you're inviting to the table and change the world by using your voice. But it's fucking scary.

Speaker 2: 31:36

Yay. I think a lot of people are afraid that it won't be a bestselling book, right? And what does that mean for them? what does that say about them If they actually go after their dream and fail and I don't believe in failure, but I think the fear of what if I'm not all that? I hope that I am.

Speaker 3: 31:53

Totally. I think it's scary and I think it's really scary to do. I think we have to make decisions, though, that are not based in fear. You know it's one thing that if you don't want to be forward-facing or you don't want to have, you know it's not for everybody and I don't think that's always motivated by fear. My sister does not want to talk to anyone about anything. She's classic introvert and that's fine. It's not like fear is holding her back from following her dreams. But I think if you are fearful in trying to navigate that, which you know, there's a certain amount of built-in fear in this process.

Speaker 3: 32:25

The one thing that's helped me is to think about what my goals are, and I think if your goal is and I tell writers that I coach this if your goal is just the external recognition, then you're always going to set yourself up for failure. If you're writing so people tell you you're a good writer, or you're writing so that people tell you to get on the New York Times bestseller list, that is a futile and you know kind of cynical goal. You have to write because, or any sort of art or any life decision that you make, you have to pursue it because it's intrinsically going to make you happy and there's another motivation there. So, for example, Joe and I, particularly when things got rough between us in terms of our collaboration and obviously I've been in book publishing long enough to know that most books are not a success, right, like it's just. Publishing is a brutal industry And so I went into it eyes wide open in terms of you know, i can't do this because of the bestseller list or because of XYZ. So the goal had to be we want to start conversations, like we want people to read this book and learn something or think about something in a different way, and so that became our guiding light, like if people did that, then we would feel the book is a success.

Speaker 3: 33:43

I'm unlucky that it was, but I think you have to define what success is going to look like to you, and it can't be external, it has to be internal and you have to be prepared that if it doesn't work, it doesn't destroy your self worth. Right, like that's what I'm talking about, that like protecting that balance. If this book sells no copies and the book that we have coming out, it sells no copies and it gets panned everywhere, i will still go on. Live it. You know what I mean. Like I still have to go on and have a career. So how do I balance that? And you have to be prepared for that outcome. That's just realistic And that's part of the work too.

Speaker 1: 34:23

Yeah, How do you balance it? I'm curious because I think this is really relevant to anybody that's chasing a big dream, And before you answer, I want to really just reiterate the being deeply rooted in a bigger. Why is so essential? because you're right If we're constantly out here and wanting to have the world reflect back to us how awesome we are, but it's not rooted in anything internal, then it always feels empty and you are at a high risk of being disappointed. So I would love to hear how do you balance that? What happens? I mean, we're going to just assume that this book is a massive success. You don't even have to worry about this and every book you ever produce is a grand slam. You know home run It's probably not the right language, but bringing in my softball background But what do you do? How do you navigate it?

Speaker 3: 35:12

Well from your lips. I think that that's where the big why comes in. You know, your motivation hasn't changed, and so I'm not motivated necessarily by the book selling a million copies or being on the bestseller list. I mean that would be nice, but if that's not the motivation, then I'm not setting myself up for disappointment. That has to be icing on the cake. But I think a lot of it is perspective, and we live in a society where everything perfection is lauded and everything is, you know, go, go, go, go, go, achieve, achieve, achieve, achieve, achieve. As you said, jessica, like failure is something that everybody is just petrified of. It's like all the messages and all the expectations we've been talking about. It is something that takes you actively reeling against. So if this book is not a success, or I write a future book that is not a success, or what have you anything in life, even if it's not about the book, if the relationship I'm in fails, if I have a friendship breakup, whatever, if I send another email with broken links?

Speaker 1: 36:19

Don't do that. You cannot do that. That's the worst.

Speaker 3: 36:26

But I have to have the perspective to ground myself, to say that's not the end of the world and something that you know can help me, even though it sounds really morbid and fatalistic but is to think about what I will care about in 10 years or 15 years or 20 years, right Or at the end. What will any of this matter? What will matter or what will, I think, seem so huge at the moment but will fade away with time? And being conscious about that is something I try to do. But this is all work in progress kind of thing. I don't want you guys or anybody listening to this to think I'm just like walking around perfectly confident and self-possessed all the time, Like I'm so grounded and I'm doing my mindfulness exercises and my gratitude journal every morning and all that It's work. I just consider it work to try to stay in a positive, authentic, vulnerable place, And it's something that I just try to be really conscious about. And I'm not always successful, as you know, none of us are but I really try every day.

Speaker 2: 37:33

Had you always wanted to be a writer, or was that a new discovery?

Speaker 3: 37:36

That was a new discovery. I mean, i've always been interested in storytelling and I went to journalism school where I thought it was going to be a broadcast anchor, of all things, which is kind of funny to think about now. And then I got into publishing at a pretty young age and I started as an editorial assistant which is how a lot of people publishing started and then worked my way up, and so I really thought I was going to be an editor for the rest of my life. I really loved doing it and I felt like I was good at it. Especially, you know, when you do something a long time in a career, the benefit of that is that you feel experienced and wise, and being a writer thrust me into a world and an experience that I was completely novice at, and I'm glad I did it.

Speaker 3: 38:24

But I have to tell you it is really hard to do something completely different after 40. Like I mean, just have such a queer pivot and to go from kind of I'm an expert in doing this, i mean by way of doing it for so long, to oh my God, this is completely new And I don't know how to do this and I have to learn on the fly and I have to be vulnerable and be willing that I don't know how to do this and to learn all these new skills, which has been a gift in and of itself. I have to say, the ability to pivot and do something new is something that I stumbled into almost, but it's just like a beautiful pivot. I think I would have been very happy continuing to be an editor, but what I've learned about myself and having the opportunity to grow and try something different even though it's been ups and downs, obviously, and terrifying and who knows what happens It's a much more vulnerable world to work for yourself as a writer career-wise, financially, you know all those things But I think it's still worth it, and so I have been telling people I mean, this is a continuation of our conversation about fear These leaps and pivots are terrifying, but they can be so worth it, and so I just want to be a person who is extolling the virtue of doing that, because sometimes, if you don't see role models, i mean if you don't see right if we don't talk about it, then it feels scarier, right?

Speaker 3: 39:58

So I'm a big proponent of taking the leap. I really want to encourage people to do that.

Speaker 2: 40:05

Did you find yourself navigating through fear and insecurity at that time that you decided to write the book with Joe?

Speaker 3: 40:12

For sure. Oh my god, it was terrifying It really, especially when you work in publishing, as I did for so long. You know exactly what's happening behind the scenes And you've worked with the very best people in the entire world in terms of the very best writers. I worked with Jonathan Latham and Colson Whitehead. All these pulled surprise winning Nash book award-winning writers and such smart editors in the business.

Speaker 3: 40:39

And then you're putting your work out there for them to judge it, and that is really hard. It's one thing for a stranger in Nebraska to read your book you might never see that person. It's another thing for your boss to read your book. You know and have thoughts about it, and so for me that was the biggest challenge. I didn't realize the emotional vulnerability that writing involved, and I think it's a sort of thing that you don't know it until you do it. Really, i mean, i've been an editor for so long. I feel kind of silly saying that, because of course it's hard, but until you, like, walk in that shoe where you're showing somebody your work, something that's personal and come from your head and heart and involves a certain level of judgment of talent, it's really really hard, and so I think it's made me a better editor because I am really sensitive to the emotional dimension that writing requires in a way that I wasn't before.

Speaker 1: 41:44

I'm really interested in the conversation that you were having with yourself before taking this leap, because a lot of people have a desire, but bridging the gap between the desire and actually doing the thing is a really interesting conversation to have, because I'm sure people listening to this will be like I have this thing, I have this desire or this calling or this thing that's pulling me. So what was the conversation you were having with yourself of I want to make this change. I feel ready now. What was that that you were like? now's the time to do this? What I'm running towards is bigger than the fear that I have.

Speaker 3: 42:20

I think for me it was so incremental. I think that's what makes it easier. It's not like I went in one day and I was like I'm going to quit my job and I'm out of here and there was sunshine, music playing, and then I went to a coffee shop and I opened up my laptop and it was like page one, the beginning. It was much more baby steps than that, and so that's what I tell people who are writing, but it's applicable to whatever you're trying to do is figure out how it can be a part of your current day to day life so that it doesn't feel so drastic. So in my case, i still had my day job and I was still publishing books when Joe and I first started talking about writing this project together and we were like, let's see what happens. So we started and we worked. She was also very busy. We worked a couple hours a week and then, okay, there's something here, the momentum built, we worked a little bit more And that helped both of us that we took baby steps into this whole process. And so if you're thinking about starting a business or writing a book or screenplay or becoming a life coach or whatever it is, i would say think about ways that you can make this a part of your current life and see how it feels, and see how you make money and see if the momentum builds from there.

Speaker 3: 43:53

It's the equivalent of I'm the person who's dipping into the pool, i'll always get into the water, but I'm going to go and put my toe in and then I'm going to go down the stairs or the ladder And there are people out there who do the cannonball. The cannonball is scarier, right? That is a riskier proposition. You don't know how deep the water is, you don't know how cold it is, but in both scenarios you end up in the water, right? So I chose the dip end, but the water was great.

Speaker 2: 44:22

So here we are. To me it speaks to trusting the natural unfoldment of your life. You seem to have been really happy where you were and then saw, as an opportunity presented itself, a moment of expansion that you then stepped into.

Speaker 3: 44:38

You know that's so interesting that you say that, because I think that you do make different decisions in your life in terms of I'm unhappy and so I have to make this decision, or I'm in a bad relationship and I have to make this decision, or I hate this job and I have to make this decision, and sometimes we have to do that. That happens, but I think it leads to a different set of decisions than I'm comfortable and I'm complacent, or everything is okay, but what else can I do to be expansive? And we're all going to face those different scenarios right I mean, both of them are kind of unavoidable by thinking really proactively and I think thoughtfully about what those motivations are and looking back and thinking about how you made different decisions and why helps you make different decisions, or think through your decisions for the future.

Speaker 1: 45:31

Yeah, i think one of those promotes the toe dipping and one of them promotes the cannonball.

Speaker 3: 45:35

Absolutely. There's a time for toe dipping and there's a time for cannonball.

Speaker 1: 45:41

There's a time for cannonballing. We ain't T-shirt Yep. Is it your time to cannonball?

Speaker 2: 45:45

I love that This could probably be a whole other hour conversation, but I really love and appreciate that you are this constant advocate to talk more about the things that make us uncomfortable, like race, and how to do it vulnerably and imperfectly, to embrace the mess. Also, i watched you in an interview with Joe talk about your own fear of conflict when you and Joe were coming to the table and working through things and bringing all your personal experiences forward that there was this fear of will we actually get through this Right? Will it be all perfect? Will we actually make it to the other side, have these conversations and come out stronger? I think that's a really big fear for most people is the fear of getting it wrong and messing up. I'm just curious, before we go, if you can speak to why that dialogue is so important and how we might be able to start breaking down these barriers in our friendships and our communities. How can we talk to each other more and make it safer to talk to each other and not be so afraid?

Speaker 3: 46:45

I mean it's so fascinating and I think I learned a lot switching careers. It's interesting because when I say that, it seems like a lot of the lessons are about career, craft and that sort of thing, but a big one was dealing with conflict. I would not have been in this situation making a career switch with Joe and dealing with this particular set of circumstances. It was a conflict avoidant person, almost pathologically so in a way that I probably wouldn't have known or admitted before. This situation helped me see it. It was a real area of opportunity for me that, regardless of my career, it helped me learn a lot about myself and how I deal with conflict. That is like I said it was hard, but it's been a real growth experience.

Speaker 3: 47:38

We talk a lot about how hard it was because a lot of people don't see a way past that.

Speaker 3: 47:45

They feel like once a conversation is hard or uncomfortable or painful, then that spells the end automatically of the relationship, of the dialogue. I truly would have thought that too, actually, before going through this. I'm as steeped in our polarized culture as everybody else and it's so easy to say, well, they don't get it, and write off people and things. I would have said this is a situation, a scenario that can't work because we're having so much conflict and pushing through that, which required me to be open and honest and address the conflict and be vulnerable about why I was upset and hear why Joe was upset or what points we were having tension about, both creatively. Some of that was just being co-writers, taking race out of the equation, but some of that was really hard conversations about race, and in both of those, the lesson of pushing through really made a difference And though we're really honest to say, not every relationship can be saved, you don't have to, as a black person, sit down with the president of your local clan, you know, and try to have a dialogue.

Speaker 3: 48:59

You know we're not talking these extremes, but there is room in our day-to-day interactions and conversations to open yourself up more, to asking questions of other people, that open conversations and being willing to listen to other people, and then, when you disagree about something, being honest about why you disagree about that, as opposed to shutting down, which I think is a lot of people's human instinct, and we've seen that happen, like we've seen people really even go back to old friends, where the friendship especially at a lot of people post 2016 that had a lot of politically fractured friendships to go or racially fractured friendships, and to go back and say this is what I was feeling and this is why this upset me so much, and if you could try to understand XYZ and vice versa really makes a difference, and that doesn't actually even mean that that's going to be your best friend for life.

Speaker 3: 50:04

We're not so kumbaya in that way, but it is a skill that we all have to get better at in terms of being able to sit with something or situation or feeling between two people or group of people or coworkers that is uncomfortable, without getting defensive, angry or shutting down, and that's just like all the things we've been talking about in this conversation takes practice. I mean, it really does. It's something that you can get better at over time, but the problem is we don't practice.

Speaker 1: 50:35

It sounds like choosing to be curious over needing to be right and also knowing that it's probably going to be messy You probably might get defensive and that it's about remaining curious or going back and repairing and saying you know my intention was to really hear you, and what I did was I got really defensive.

Speaker 1: 50:58

Let's try again, because we're not going to nail it, especially, like you're saying, we aren't practiced at this And it's something that takes a lot of practice to face conflict head on versus trying to dance around it, and I think most of us would probably dance around conflict. It's like a blanket statement. It's easier.

Speaker 3: 51:14

I mean, we're looking for hacks in our life. The shortcut is oh well, I'm done with that. Oh well, i'm done with that. Oh well, i'm done with that. But I think what we're running up against in our personal lives and society is that you can't just keep doing that. It's not possible, it's not sustainable.

Speaker 3: 51:29

And there are some relationships that might not work and that might not be safe or healthy for you, and obviously everyone is their own judge of what that situation is. But there are also, on the flip side, some relationships that can be expanded or enhanced or deep end with this kind of openness and emotional vulnerability, are willing to overcome or tolerate some discomfort in that process. And so it's less about who are you going to reach across the aisle to kind of thing, for me at least and more about who are the people that you love and care about. You're willing to go there a little bit more, and that's what our characters, riley and Jen, had to do. There's so much love between them, but they had to be willing to dig that much deeper and be that much more uncomfortable and be that much more open. And they got to the other side and Joe and I, in a case of art imitating life or vice versa. We never know. Did art imitate life or did life imitate art, but either way, we experienced that lesson as well.

Speaker 2: 52:38

I think it goes back to what we were saying before, what you wrote about how do you think we can create a world expansive enough that we're all allowed to be authentic? And it's actually through the dialogue, through the conversations, through coming to understanding, that I think that is made more possible. We need to understand each other's lived experiences.

Speaker 3: 52:58

That's what we really hope our books do, which is allow people to have these kind of conversations, because sometimes it's hard to just go right in with your personal experience, but using a book or using these, we hope relatable characters to say look how they had this conversation, or look at this experience, or this brought up this feeling for me. I don't know why I felt that way. We hope these help. We want people to be having these hard conversations and we hope our books are a vehicle to help people do that. That's when you say like what's the mission, What's the goal? What would make me happy? at the end of the day, It's less the New York Times bestseller list although that would be nice and more you know. Lots of people feel changed by having these conversations. In a perfect world, though both, Both.

Speaker 1: 53:49

We have both, you know we get to have the and.

Speaker 3: 53:51

It was a privilege to talk to you ladies.

Speaker 2: 53:54

It was such a privilege to talk to you. I just want to say to everybody listening to please go out and help You are always mine Make the top of the New York Times bestseller list And then also go home and have really deep, meaningful conversations about it. Yeah, we are so honored that you joined us today. Your book is so good. I feel so lucky that I got to read it in advance, and I have no doubt that it's going to be hugely successful and I'm really thrilled about all the good things that are happening for you. So thank you for coming and sharing with us today.

Speaker 3: 54:32

Well, it was really truly a treat to spend an hour talking to you ladies Today. I talk about, you know, moving deep conversations. I am honored that you had me on and I will come back anytime to chat with you guys. This was really really great.

Speaker 1: 54:46

We would love that. We would love that. Hey there, Rebels.

Speaker 2: 54:59

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