Kevin Benevides: Rethinking Niceness — How to Recover From People-Pleasing, Codependency, and Self-Abandonment

Melissa: 0:02

To even question what you've been told is true is incredibly courageous. It doesn't always feel like courage. What looks like courage to other people, for me it feels like survival. This is our personal medicine. If I'm surrounded by thinkers, by lovers, by passion, by integrity, then I really do think that I know who I am. There is a piece that is indescribable when you're being who you are and you're living your purpose, i'm going to come to the end of my life and be like I didn't live the life I was meant to live.

Jessica: 0:31

Can I be so comfortable in the unknown and so comfortable in that uncertainty that every version of it is going to be okay?

Melissa: 0:39

This is the Inner Rebel podcast.

Jessica: 0:50

I am actually feeling a little bit nervous today because this is the first guest, who is a stranger, that I stalked on Instagram and actually approached him to be on our show. Kevin Benavidez from the Canvas Within. He is a transformational coach who helps men mindfully master their mind and emotions, align with their purpose and step into their full potential so that they can become better husbands and fathers and leaders. Why this feels really significant to me? obviously, I am not a man, but I want to thank you for what you have done for me to help me understand and reframe experiences that I've had with men in my life. I think a lot of what you share is actually very universal, but you are very specific in naming things that I don't think a lot of people are naming and calling out a specific kind of culture that I think harms both men and women. I'm very excited to talk about your work, the work that you do, and also get to know you. We usually start off with a question that you're allowed to answer any way that you want.

Kevin: 1:58

For sure.

Jessica: 1:59

Who are you today, and how is that different from who you thought you were supposed to be?

Kevin: 2:07

Interesting. I'm a human being that is currently playing the role of husband, father, transformational coach, son, brother, who is living life more authentically than ever before, with potentially more to go in the sense of more authenticity to come through compared to who I was in the past. I was who the world told me to be, who my family told me to be, who I needed to be to survive. None of that is necessarily good or bad. It is what it is. I think that a lot of us, we just fall suit with what we see. Well, mom and dad, the family, tells us what the culture tells us, what our friends tell us, and we just live that life, and I think that's the life I was living, which is, again, not a bad thing. My wife came in. That My first two kids came in, that I started cultivating a life that was beautiful and, at the same time, not really living fully, because I was hiding behind my people pleasing and codependent ways.

Jessica: 3:10

What were the things you were told you should be, or what did you believe you should be?

Kevin: 3:16

Go to school, get an education, be nice, right, don't piss people off, don't upset people, don't say things you're not supposed to say, stay in line. I don't know if I was told anything, it was more so what I felt like I needed to do to help me live. We're unconscious of the thing that we're unconscious of until we do the work on ourselves. Right At that time, i'm just doing what I thought I needed and wanted to do. I just follow an easy path in a way Go to school, get an education, get that nine to five job, check all those boxes right. It's a normal, i think, societal thing that we have.

Kevin: 3:51

If I was freer to choose a different path, would I have chosen a different path? I think so. I think I wouldn't even gone to college At the time. I wanted to do carpentry. And my mom's like nope, you got to finish your education. I'm like, okay, i go back and I finish my education, got my degree in graphic design. At the time There comes a point in our life where, especially a people pleaser, a codependent person, you wake up to is this the life that I want? Am I doing what I want to do Because I've been doing what everybody else has wanted or what I felt like I needed to do to keep everyone happy, right.

Jessica: 4:26

Tell us about 2013, because there was a moment in 2013 where something changed in you.

Kevin: 4:33

Yeah, 2013,. So 10 years now. In the springtime, my dad got really sick. I went into hospital. We thought he was going to pass. I thought he was going to pass. I didn't think he was going to make it through his health condition when he was dealing with.

Kevin: 4:44

So in that moment, a lot of things came up for me Anxiety, which I was always living with. I just didn't know what it was. Anxiety skyrocketed to the point where I was having anxiety attacks multiple times a week. Depression came with that, and a bunch of things from my childhood that I stuffed down and repressed I didn't purposely want to stuff it down, but it would just push down came to the surface when I was like, oh, i'm going to lose my dad. I started grieving his death, even though he didn't die and he's still alive, he's still around, but all that. I call it a mental and emotional shit storm that I was in for like six months. So all this stuff came to the surface and it was like I have to do something about this, because it was really tough. That was what started the journey for me. So, six months of hell I would say A few months in, i started getting some support through a mental health counselor, which was good, and then one of the things that I was like putting on the band aid and a week later the band would fall off Almost from the get go.

Kevin: 5:40

This guy was telling me I think you should learn mindfulness. I'm like, what the hell is that? No, no, i'm good, thanks, i just want to stick with you. And almost every session he would say, like I think you should learn mindfulness. And then finally, about six months into this whole journey, it was in September of 2013,. I was at like my breaking point. By that time I had a heart monitor strapped on to me because I was having heart palpitations, because the anxiety was so strong I literally thought I was going to die. I was at that point where, like, either death or something drastically different has to happen. And so same thing went back to see him and he's like you should try mindfulness. And I'm like you know what I should.

Kevin: 6:20

And that was the interesting part. I opened myself up to that because I was at that breaking point where something had to change right. So I reached out to this person who I knew, knew mindfulness and taught mindfulness and other things, and I started to meet with him on a weekly, bi-weekly basis. He opened up my world to spirituality and just started supporting me and understanding my anxiety and understanding my relationship to my dad, and that's when everything started to change. Within a month, my anxiety was way more manageable than it ever was. I started to become really passionate about growing, being better, personal development, spirituality, all that stuff. I just became passionate about it. I wanted to learn about it. I was always reading, i was always watching videos, i was implementing what I was learning And so, by January 1st 2014, i started the Canvas within. I thought you know, i want to share this with the world Because right away, it was like, if I can go through this in one month and be so much better than anybody can, i wanted to share it with people.

Melissa: 7:18

We like to take terms that our guests use and make sure that our listeners really understand. I know mindfulness is kind of a personal growth 101 term, but I'd love for you to share What does that mean to you And what were some of the things that you were practicing that really changed your life? Cause I know I had decades of anxiety, panic attacks. I very much relate to your story And so I think anything that we can give. That gives people some relief.

Kevin: 7:45

I think mindfulness as a way of being able to bring my awareness, my attention, to the present moment, and we can use that doing different things, like I can look and say, oh, how many colors are in this room or how many things are blocked. My mind is focused on what's present in front of me, not in the future or in the past. For me, it was mindfulness of your breath, which is the basic thing Our ability to bring our awareness, our attention, to one single thing, but that single thing is in the present moment, and so, instead of being in my head, what's going on inside of me? That's something that I developed afterwards The mindfulness of my body, right, like being aware of what's going on inside of me in the moment. Yeah, that took years to learn. That's really next level. But then it's also during the day, checking in with yourself, right?

Kevin: 8:31

I have an alarm on my phone. Three times a day goes off. When that alarm goes off, it's my opportunity to pause, take a couple of deep breaths and then ask myself what is going on? What am I thinking, what am I feeling? What do I need in this moment? Because we're busy, we're doing things and we're so stuck in our head doing, doing, doing. It's coming back to now, even just that, that moment of focus.

Jessica: 8:54

Well, i think another reason that we tend to move into our heads is we disassociate. We have trauma, we have experiences that we don't want to feel or we aren't given a safe space to feel in the moment that that incident or trauma or experience occurs, right. So we start to bury things, we repress things and we move up into our minds and we move into the past and the future, because if we actually get present, that is where we actually have to be with it. So, actually getting still and being present and being in the moment, i think maybe we should gently remind our listeners that that is not an easy thing to do, because it is in the stillness that we then have to look at ourselves. I agree totally agree.

Jessica: 9:38

And then you said, at least in what I've read about you, that you then started to have all these discoveries about why you were the way that you were. Can you share a couple of the discoveries at that moment in time that really helped trigger this transformation, this new journey? you went on.

Kevin: 9:55

The first and foremost was in that September to November period of 2013. It was the realization of how much I lacked from my dad growing up and how that impacted me, and then understanding what he was going through, why he was the way he was. It really liberated me a lot to see that it's not my fault, it's not me What we do very unconsciously, especially as kids right, we're very egocentric. The world revolves around us, so when mom and dad are upset or when they're not giving us, it's because there must be something wrong with me. It's my fault there.

Kevin: 10:33

This way, unconsciously, that gets programmed into us. That was running me for a very long time, until when I was 31 years old, and it was like wait a second, oh, i'm not the reason why X, y and Z, x, y and Z was happening. It's because he had his own shit that he's never dealt with And I have compassion for that. Now It doesn't mean like it's okay We're not saying it's okay what they did, but it's just that understanding to separate yourself and be like oh, i totally get why you would do this or not do this.

Melissa: 11:04

This, obviously, is something that men share having some sort of father wounding And I'm curious, what are men dealing with collectively that? you see, what are the common threads that they're running up against as they're on their own in our awakening and personal growth journeys?

Kevin: 11:19

I think it's mother wound, father wound, but most of us have both of them right. A big thing that's plaguing men is living up to their version of what they learn. It means to be a man or moving away from it, trying to be a certain type of masculine man or trying to not be like a certain type of masculine man. That messes up a lot of us because I think it's men.

Kevin: 11:43

Women doesn't matter gender, but especially for men, we want to be men, right, like we don't want to be seen as less of a man, and so we're trying to go through life and again check off all these boxes your job, how much money you make, trying to accomplish certain things, look a certain way, sleep with more women. I think at the core of it it's not just masculinity, it's the relationship with themselves, and that's what I really coach and support men with is the relationship with themselves. What I see is men who are insecure, who don't feel worthy, who have been hiding a lot of emotions or not being able to be with certain emotions. The nice guy doesn't embody a lot of his masculine traits, which stems to how he was raised and the men he was around growing up.

Jessica: 12:28

I have a bit of a controversial opinion and I'm open to debating this, but I think I've come to the understanding that a lot of what we consider to be nice is actually repression. It actually isn't healthy and it doesn't mean that we should be mean to each other. We should be good to each other but, maybe we can define niceness more clearly in this case and why it has so much potential to be toxic if it's not authentic.

Kevin: 12:57

Yeah, and when I use the term nice guy, which is a term created by Dr Robert Glover, who wrote No More Mr Nice Guy, the niceness that I'm talking about is not authentic. It's fabricated, it's forced. It doesn't come from the heart, it's done in a way to protect. I want to be kind from my heart, because a lot of niceness is I'm being nice, i'm being polite and I'm being agreeable so that you approve of me, you validate me, you like me, you're giving me something in return. I'm not just doing this because that's what I actually truly want from my heart. I'm doing this because this is protecting me, This is supporting me, and at the same time, you can be kind and speak your truth and have somebody upset at you, but that's coming from my heart, not to hurt you, but this is my truth. How you receive it, that's up to you. But what happens is, if we say this as a people pleaser, we have the risk of that person getting upset, and if that person gets upset, we're no longer safe.

Jessica: 13:58

This people pleasing the nice guy persona often comes out of what you were speaking to before, about how we learn very young and are conditioned around our parents and in society to learn what gives us love and learn what makes us feel safe and approved of. I think we're all in the same boat to a certain degree. These are defense mechanisms and trauma, behaviors and patterns we're acting out throughout our lives that are not intentional. So when you become aware of it, what's the next step? Someone listening going oh, I do this and men and women both do this.

Jessica: 14:34

What's the next step?

Kevin: 14:35

Yeah, i think it's a simple step of don't just look at the one thing that you do. Now you're aware, oh, i agree, when I'm actually disagreeing. Go deeper, in the sense of what other ways do I suppress myself, betray myself in order to get love, to be safe, to get that approval, that validation? what other ways that really will open your eyes? We have to be aware, otherwise we're going through life unconsciously Oh, i know, i do this one thing, but there's nothing else over here. But there's so much over here. So it's like opening yourself up to seeing, okay, this is what I do.

Kevin: 15:07

And at the same time, when that happens, you're going to feel shitty, you're going to feel shame because you're like, oh my gosh, i'm doing all this stuff. That's horrible, natural to feel, but you don't have to hold on to that. Just think about it. That's just the way I was programmed. I didn't decide to be this way Again because people, pleasing is a developmental trauma. We didn't choose to be this way. This is the result of how we were raised and the way that we kept ourselves safe and get our love and, like you were saying, so, first and foremost, make sure that you see all the ways in which you are abandoning yourself, betraying yourself, suppressing yourself. Then if I know that I don't speak my truth at work because I don't want my coworkers or boss to get upset at me, then intentionally go and speak your truth, even if it's uncomfortable.

Jessica: 15:49

Can I ask you did you have access to what your truth was at the time that you came into this self-discovery? Did you know your truth and you realized you had been repressing it and abandoning yourself, Or was it actually a journey of even discovering what it is?

Kevin: 16:07

Yeah, it was a journey. I didn't realize the people pleasing part, the codependency. About four years into my journey, see it to the point where you're saying, oh, i see it now. Oh shit, what do I do? right? I didn't know people pleasing codependency, nice guy, i didn't have in terms. I didn't understand any of that. What I did know was I'm always looking outside of myself for love, for attention. I'm always Hiding certain things about me, like I feel afraid to share certain things because I don't want people to get upset, and I was tired of it. And so, yes, it came with time. Right, it wasn't just like I worked through my anxiety, i worked through my father wound and all of a sudden, i know this authentic self. It started opening up to what was more true for me, the way I wanted to live, what I wanted to do with my life. But I was still hiding myself. Right, i wasn't showing up fully authentic. I am still in that journey to show up fully authentic.

Melissa: 16:58

But yeah, i wasn't there right away to answer your question yeah, that's such a lifelong journey to and To just to feel safe, because there's all the layers used to chip away at like, oh, it's okay If I say this, it's okay If I show this, it's okay if I have this hard conversation, if my parents get mad at me because I Speak up against something that I was raised to believe and now I don't believe in it, and it's such an iterative process.

Melissa: 17:23

The thing that I Have been feeling into so much lately, and why I said in the beginning that I feel like this is a really timely conversation, is I Was at a retreat recently.

Melissa: 17:33

It was a sacred business retreat and we talked a lot about our partnerships and What I see is a disproportionate a massively disproportionate amount of women Versus men doing this inner work, and a lot of times the women go first. So, like 100% of the women that I coach that have partners are like cool, how do I get my husband, how do I get my partner to do this? How do I find a man that is conscious and aware? and I Have been working through this in my own marriage with my own partner. So how do we make it more approachable, or what do you think is as a catalyst to get men to want to do this work because they'll feel more free. Right, it's not just the women being like you got to be a different, better person. It's like wanting it for themselves so that they can show up in the ways in which you're exemplifying. So what do we do about this? How do we get men more interested in this work?

Kevin: 18:28

Yeah, first and foremost, do not force any man to do this work.

Kevin: 18:31

And if you're a man listening to this, don't do it because your wife or your girlfriend said you need to do this or Okay the relationship and never work, because what I'll end up happening is you're not fully committed to it.

Kevin: 18:45

I've seen it so much with clients. I have to ask them if I know that their wife or girlfriend sent them my way. We have a serious conversation about this, because what will end up happening is you apply yourself because you're like I have to do this to save my relationship, but then it gets hard and they weren't committed to the challenge of it and then things start to fall apart and then it's either blaming the partner or even just blaming themselves, bringing them more into their shame and Things don't change. Or blaming the coach, or blaming whoever's helping them, and nothing happens, because it got too challenging for them And they weren't really fully committed. So only do the work because you want to for yourself. Yes, you can want to improve your relationship, to be a better father, all those things, but at first and foremost, it's because you want to do it because usually the catalyst, often times, is their partner.

Melissa: 19:33

I'm in agreement with you, is like their partners, like you got to do some work right, but to go from the place of yeah of somebody else wanting it for you To you wanting it for you. I know a lot of times there is like a big traumatic moment. That happens the same with men and women, or life. Something gets so bad you have to hit. But like, do we always have to hit rock bottom before we start to give a shit about ourselves And doing this work?

Kevin: 19:58

It's a good question. I've asked that many times to even myself. It's a common question and, unfortunately, i think it is almost rock bottom, but not rock bottom to the point where, like, you're deeply depressed and you can't get out of bed or you've lost everything in your life, but there's a low that you hit and then, because you're in that low, then it's like okay, i want to do this because I don't want to feel this again. I think it really is some sort of rock bottom that moves us forward. But, that being said, how can we support more men? is having this out there more? the more Men are out there supporting other men talking about this, making it normal, then it's gonna be easier for us to open up to this.

Kevin: 20:36

That's why I feel so passionate about my work, even just putting out the content that I do, because we have to normalize this, not just want to work on ourselves so we can make more money. Right, because a lot of guys do that. I want to build that business and make more money, so I'm gonna learn this trick and that trick and this hack and that habit and all that stuff, but they're not really doing the deeper work on themselves. We've glorified the hustle culture. What's more important is men's work, your inner work on yourself, and it's just putting it out more and more. I think that's gonna be really supportive and have events programs Where it's safe for a guy to just dip his toe in. They just want to check it out. They don't want to fully commit. And then I know a lot of men who've done that. They'll do it for a couple months, then they leave and then a year later They're back in Until again something really smacks them across the head. Oh, i want to do this.

Jessica: 21:28

I don't blame men personally. I think there is a cultural issue going on, and I think part of it is that our wounds actually get rewarded, a lot of our trauma behaviors actually get rewarded by society, and so there isn't that much incentive for men to actually do this work, and I think a lot of women have been conditioned to keep the bar really low. I think that we expect to carry a lot of the emotional weight of a relationship. When we see a man cry or compliment his wife where they're a good father, we glorify them. So what I think should just be the standard ends up being look what he's doing, which is the basics for a lot of the women that I know are doing this work.

Kevin: 22:15

I definitely feel like way more women doing the deeper work on themselves than men. But, that being said, a lot more men than ever before are doing this work. I know because there are endless amounts that reach out to me that interact with my content. I see other coaches, other organizations, tons of guys right, but there is that culture that we get rewarded for behaving certain ways. We just got to keep on moving forward And again making this more normal and opening more men's eyes.

Kevin: 22:45

That's why I love challenging certain men who feel like they're doing amazing in life, which maybe they are. But I can sense it. I can see it that they're hurting. I can see it that they're not showing up in their best. Their bar, like you said, is very low And they're like, well, if I just provide, if I just hustle, if I just make money, if I just find that girl, then I'm fine And I'm doing great. Look, i have all this, but yet you can see they're in security. You can see that they're not healthy with their body. So I love to challenge men to open their self up to the next level.

Jessica: 23:20

I'm curious what you think are the most pervasive or damaging societal narratives or wounds that men are dealing with and having to confront in themselves that make it scary for them to enter these spaces of healing.

Kevin: 23:35

I think it's wanting to live up to a certain definition of what it means to be a man or masculinity. I think that really holds us back. I was guest speaking in a men's group that deals with addiction the other day And this one gentleman said thank you for sharing. I appreciate what you were saying. I've been going through life thinking that I'm supposed to be stoic. Guys think I'm supposed to show no emotions. I'm good, i'm always good, there's nothing wrong with me. But he's like wait, what about when I am hurting? What about when I am challenged? Now I can't speak because I'm not supposed to speak up, that I'm hurting, i'm struggling because then I'm less of a man. So if you're battling that, you know what I mean. You're in a tough spot.

Jessica: 24:17

Can you help us understand what that programming is, what that narrative of what it is to be man enough is?

Kevin: 24:25

Show no emotions. Boys don't cry, right, that sort of thing. Suck it up. You got to provide, provide, provide. I think it really comes back to a suppression of what's actually our humanity, our humanity. Right, doesn't matter what gender is being suppressed our emotions, our feelings, our truth, it's being stuffed down. That's not supportive. And I think another piece is I think we've been so wounded, like emotionally, psychologically, not by just men, by men, by women, just by life in general, and because we've stuffed down our truth and our pain, we have to find ways to deal with that. So if I'm feeling insecure, i don't feel enough. Well, i'll feel enough. If I sleep with more women, i'll feel enough. If I climb the ladder in the corporate world, i'll be enough when I get that money at anyone's expense. These are all like the things that we see certain men do, and women as well.

Melissa: 25:23

Yeah, it feels very similar. I'm like we're all dealing with the same shit. It's just different levels of it. Yeah, yeah exactly.

Kevin: 25:32

But for the case of men, it's the fact that we don't want to look at the reasons why we're actually doing these things that are not good for us, that are actually not supporting us. We don't want to look at that stuff And, again, that's the issue. It all comes back to how we're hurting inside and how we're feeling about ourselves. I think that's what it really stems back to. And, of course, we live in a culture where how can I say men are bad, right, Like let's just put it out there for I don't know how many years or maybe decades? it's like women are rising, which is great, But we're also trying to make men look like pieces of shits and they're no good, Right, And they're the cause of all the issues. And, yes, a lot of men cause the issues. But if I'm perhaps a teenager or in my 20s, I'm getting all these messages And it's like what the hell do I do? Who do I be? Because if I'm this way, then all these women are not going to like me.

Melissa: 26:25

I know you're like stuck If.

Kevin: 26:27

I'm. if I'm not this way, then all the men are not going to like me, right, like, yeah, you're, but I think it's such an interesting thing.

Melissa: 26:32

You spoke to it And I always have to catch myself too, cause I talk a lot about feminine energy. And it's not the men, it's this toxic masculinity, like the definition of that which we all have in us, and it's like where that's pervasive, it tends to be the places where we're out of alignment, right Anytime you swing the pendulum too far in one direction or the other, and so it is really like almost taking away the gender of it and being like. it's these expectations of the ways of being that are the problem not the person right.

Melissa: 27:02

It's the way in which we're conditioned, And I love free. We've talked a lot about what the issues are And I would like to talk about what's possible, Cause I think that's the exciting stuff. You're a living example. You're a husband, you're a father, you're a man. You're doing this work with a lot of men. I would love for you to speak into what has shifted in your life. How are your relationships so much richer and what is possible for men in general through doing what you're suggesting? Who do they get to be and how does it get to feel in their life?

Kevin: 27:35

So there's two main things. I want to start with One. I'm not perfect, I haven't gotten everything right. I make a lot of mistakes, I still hurt people, But the difference is that I'll own up to it right away and I'll try and work on that thing that I messed up. I won't suppress it or push it away or pretend it's not there, But what's on the other side?

Kevin: 27:53

First thing that came to my mind was more of a vision of lightness, less burden, less heaviness. A lot of us men carry a lot of emotional burden, even psychological, right, That inner critic inside of us beating ourselves up when we make a mistake. There's a heaviness inside of a lot of us men that by doing this work you start to let go of. I use the analogy of like a backpack with bricks in it And we have like this huge backpack, maybe almost like this big bag, And we're trying to go through life with this bag and it's heavy as hell. And when we're doing this work you tackle one thing, you tackle one fear, you process a certain emotion. The bricks are just starting to come out and it's lighter and lighter.

Kevin: 28:34

Life feels more aligned to me. I'm more I don't know if the word is proud of. But I'm grateful for the man that I am for my kids, And when I do see that I messed up something with my kids, I'm like I'm sorry, I'm going to own up to that. That was messed up, Like I shouldn't have said that, I shouldn't have screamed that way, And so I'm proud of the man that I get to be for everyone in my life. On the other side of this is freedom from your vices And we all have our own vices the things that we turn to because we don't know how to deal with what's going on inside of us or in our life right now. Imagine a life where you don't even have to think about the drink or the drug or the sex or the hustle, whatever the thing is. It doesn't have control over you. You have control over it.

Jessica: 29:22

I think what breaks my heart a little bit is that we all want the same thing to feel deep connection and love and a sense of belonging and be vulnerable and have intimacy And I really believe that it's just a lot of pain and societal conditioning and trauma in the way that we aren't calling out enough When we were speaking to the frustration of women.

Jessica: 29:49

I think it's just that we want to be met. We just want to be met emotionally, And the very thing that a lot of men have been told is so unsafe to be is the very thing that we want.

Kevin: 29:59

For sure. They just don't know how to. They don't feel safe and they don't know how to. You can't hold space for your partner and her emotions and what she's going through. If you've never held space for yours, if you've never been with your emotion, that's right. You're wanting that support with everything that's moving through you, but this man cannot give you that container to be supported that way, because he's like what do I do with this? It's just too uncomfortable. No, like you're good, everything's going to be fine, and it's just dismissing. What's your going through, right? No, we're saying that because I don't know how to deal with this. I don't want to deal with this because if you're feeling a certain way, you're dealing with something. It's going to trigger something inside of me.

Jessica: 30:36

Yeah, yeah. Is this why a lot of men go into fix it? or I need to solve your?

Kevin: 30:41

one Yeah, because I can't be with your emotional discomfort because of my emotional discomfort And also I want to fix it Again. This is a common thing for nice guys, especially codependent men, is I want to fix your problem because if you're unhappy it's unsafe for me And if you're unhappy then you're not in the mood that I need you to be in.

Melissa: 31:01

Yeah.

Kevin: 31:02

So that I get what I need from you. I need you to be happy so that you can compliment me, so you can be sexually available, all these things. And so if you have a problem or if you're not happy, i got to change this as soon as I possibly can, because my resource, where I'm siphoning my self-worth and my safeness, is cut off now because you're not doing well. It's a huge one. I still have to check myself right And what I say to my wife now, like when she needs support, i'm there, obviously, but certain things before, where she's complaining about something, i'll listen to her, but before I was like do this, do that? like trying to help her solve the problem. All she wanted me to do was just listen to her. And then sometimes certain things happen and I'm like, yeah, you're a big girl, you'll be able to figure out. And she's like, thank you. I'm like, okay, and I just walk away.

Melissa: 31:49

Well, i love even the question and I have to do this as a coach like, do you need me to listen or do you want me to provide solutions? right? Like, how do you want me to be for you in this conversation? Because I can sit and be with you and listen and my husband is good about this. He'll be, like do you want me to try to solve this with you, or do you need me to just hear you? and I'm like thank you for asking, because it's a big one, right? Just like how do you want me to be with you when you're telling me these things that are going on in your life? right, we can all learn from that.

Jessica: 32:20

A challenge that I am in the middle of the nice guy and this syndrome of niceness that I think men and women both experience and deal with.

Kevin: 32:32

Yeah, it's both yeah.

Jessica: 32:34

How do we discern the difference in someone else? I think we all have been very conditioned to believe that a nice guy is what we're looking for, and I am unraveling that in myself. But you also want someone who is kind and is compassionate and is showing up, and so how do we discern? How do we discern the difference?

Kevin: 32:57

If you know the man like you, have history with him in a sense friendship or a family member, and you can see that there are people pleaser, then you can question their saying yes or whatever the thing is. I do that sometimes with my kids, especially with my daughter, and I hope she doesn't hear this, but I know she's a people pleaser. She's already starting to develop that a little bit. She wants to please like mom and dad, right? She wants to make sure that we don't get upset at her. So sometimes we'll be talking about certain things and she'll give a certain answer and I'm like no, i want your truth.

Kevin: 33:32

Please tell me what you actually want for yourself. I'm not going to get upset. Please tell me. Don't just say what you want to say to keep me happy, i don't care. I just need you to tell me the truth And it doesn't have to be confrontational. It's just hey, i know that you have a hard time sometimes with this and then just saying I rather have your truth than you just trying to keep me happy or whatever the thing is.

Jessica: 33:53

And what if it's someone you don't know? Like I'm going to start dating, you know.

Kevin: 33:58

Yes, when you don't know, it pops up and I haven't dated and I date my wife, but I can't say how dating life is right now. But I'd say, if a man can call you on something, Lovingly Yeah.

Kevin: 34:12

I was about to say respectfully, lovingly, then you know that perhaps he's not that nice guy, he's not living with that sort of syndrome, because if we are, there's no way we're going to, we'll call you out. But what's going to be very rude, disrespectful, right, if for a man to say you know, i really didn't appreciate what you did at that date or whatever, but it comes from again a loving, respectful place, honesty, you know that he's done some work, right.

Jessica: 34:43

I felt my heart like I feel so emotional and I think you just clarified it so simply because I really have been living with that question for a while now Like, how do I trust myself to know? You know, I've had enough life experiences that I really believed I was with someone safe and then it didn't turn out to be that way. So my own ability to navigate and trust in my relationship to men has been affected. So I've been trying to figure out what that is and you just so simply made it very clear for me and I really appreciate that.

Kevin: 35:26

And another quick thing. Can I give you one more quick thing That just came into my mind? If he's always texting you and wanting to be with you right off the bat, Warn it.

Jessica: 35:36

Oh, I already know that one.

Kevin: 35:38

I won and it's like whoa.

Jessica: 35:40

That one I got, i'm good.

Kevin: 35:42

Okay, all right, just wanted to put that in there.

Jessica: 35:45

Yeah, but seeing through the niceness or seeing through, you know, because I think in some cases I really was like, oh, i learned a lot from the niceness. I think that I had previous experiences where, because I didn't experience generosity or I didn't experience someone kind of going above and beyond, when I did experience it I was like, oh, isn't it so nice to be with someone who just doesn't make these things a big deal and they're so effortlessly generous, and then not actually being able to see that I was coming from potentially an inauthentic place or a need to please, or he just wanting to fill a role Right.

Jessica: 36:20

Yeah.

Kevin: 36:21

I hear you.

Jessica: 36:23

I think what I've learned is what I've been trying to feel into, and I do think what you said about someone being able to lovingly call out the truth, i think is major. It's really helpful, thank you.

Kevin: 36:35

You're welcome.

Melissa: 36:36

I feel like I need to give my husband some credit after this interview because I'm like a dominating person.

Melissa: 36:42

You know I've softened a lot over the years of really like leaning and learning more about my feminine side, but I'm a strong woman and he does a great job of meeting that. It would be like calls me out of my bullshit in a loving way, you know. But I need that. I didn't want somebody that I could walk all over and just dominate Like. I needed a match that could be like okay, like sure you're strong and I got you And I can call you out and like we'll be okay.

Melissa: 37:10

I hadn't really thought about that that much of just the significance of that or just being able to, you know, even like to say no or to not operate out of guilt. I noticed one thing that he does very well and maybe something to look for is like his mom is like I just love her dearly and she loves planning family events and things like that, and like he literally won't give a yes unless he really means it, like he has no problem with the no, like I don't feel like doing that, i don't want it, you know, like so, even sometimes when it comes to like moms, which is probably a whole other window we could open here of like the mama's boy, or like wanting to please your mom and say yes, or do whatever mom wants. He's also has great boundaries around. That He shows up for a lot of it.

Melissa: 37:51

But he's also like I don't need to constantly please, Like I'm not worried about losing your love. Yeah, Yeah, aces.

Kevin: 37:59

That's good, it's great Go.

Jessica: 38:01

John.

Melissa: 38:01

Yeah, we can be so hard on our partners, but it's good to give them credit. So I would love for you to share what you have going on or ways that somebody listening that's like, okay, maybe I want to do this. Like how do men dip their toes in? How do we make this accessible?

Kevin: 38:18

First and foremost, whether it's with me or anyone else follow accounts on Instagram and any social media, right, It's not going to hurt you by following an account and then all of a sudden seeing certain things pop up and just start reading and learning to open yourself up to it. Open a men's group, right, or check out a men's event. I have like two closed groups and they only open at certain points during the year And, yeah, one-on-one coaching obviously is almost at any time, as long as I have space. But I think for men just to dip their toe in is just to open themselves up, just check it out.

Kevin: 38:50

And if you connect with a friend or another man in your life that you know from whatever space that has gone through certain things in their life, meet them up for coffee. Ask them some questions, right. Go beyond the sports and business and politics and go into, like how are you doing? How did you work through this challenge in your life? I know you were divorced. How was that? What did you have to face Those sort of things? Start having more conversations about deeper things with men that you feel like you can.

Melissa: 39:22

Yeah, it's perfect. My husband is not. He plays sports, but he's not a sports guy And he's like it is so hard to be a man when you don't watch sports because that is what everyone goes to as their baseline conversation And he's like I don't know what's going on And he's had to really work through, not pretending, but it's really hard because that is a go-to. Well, i think that was such a brilliant point.

Kevin: 39:44

Yeah.

Melissa: 39:45

Just ask some different kinds of questions.

Jessica: 39:47

Get out of business, politics and sports, i think it's a whole other conversation to have about how men are showing up for men and with each other. Oh, yeah, yeah, and what is happening between men is a big part of this, i think.

Kevin: 40:00

Yeah, i think so too, And you know, what I was about to say was just reaching out to your male friends and saying, hey, how are you actually doing? Because we don't do that enough, especially as men, we don't do that. How amazing would it be if you had a friend that called you and say, hey, how's life going on? What are you dealing with? Is there anything that I can you want to, yeah, support with or need to talk about, or whatever? the thing is right, you have to be yourself open and willing to hold that space for them. So that's also a challenge. But, yeah, we need to just check in because even if we don't know, even if you don't know the answer, at least you can guide them and say I hear you, i'm sorry that you're dealing with this. Even just that acknowledgement would help a lot of us men. So you can be that leader. Right, we want to be men, we want to be leaders. That's a way to lead. A new way of leading is checking in on your male friends.

Jessica: 40:52

Well, thank God for rock bottoms Right.

Melissa: 40:57

I'm gone for rock bottoms.

Jessica: 40:59

Oh yeah, that's the title of the episode. Now, hell yeah, what can be the hardest moment of our lives can also be the catalyst.

Kevin: 41:08

It's the best thing that ever happened to me.

Jessica: 41:10

Yeah, yeah, and I'm so glad that you were willing to come and share your wisdom with us.

Melissa: 41:15

Yes, thank you so much for being here. I was really going to make a difference.

Kevin: 41:19

Thank you, appreciate both of you for inviting me on, and I can keep on going. I love talking about this.

Melissa: 41:27

That's a thing I feel like every conversation we have. We're like we need like six more hours with you. There's so much more to unpack. We want to bring men on here, We want to bring conscious men on here and we want to open up the conversation. It's not enough for us to just be having it with women, Right?

Jessica: 41:44

We'll come on and do another round at some point And we'll go to the next level. I appreciate it so much. Thank you, Kevin.

Kevin: 41:50

You're welcome. Definitely We should Hey there Rebels.

Jessica: 42:03

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