Laura Warrell: A 25-Year “Overnight” Success: The Power of Not Giving Up

Melissa: 0:02

To even question what you've been told is true is incredibly courageous. It doesn't always feel like courage. What looks?

Laura Warrell: 0:10

like courage to other people. For me, it feels like survival. This is our personal medicine.

Melissa: 0:15

If I'm surrounded by thinkers, by lovers, by passion, by integrity, then I really do think that I know who I am. There is a piece that is indescribable when you're being who you are and you're living your purpose, I'm going to come to the end of my life and be like I didn't live the life I was meant to live.

Jessica: 0:31

Can I be so comfortable in the unknown and so comfortable in that uncertainty that every version of it is going to be okay?

Melissa: 0:39

This is the Inner Rebel podcast. How are you doing? I am so good. I'm happy to be here and happy to get to meet you, Laura. Yeah, great to meet you too, Laura.

Jessica: 0:56

as I was doing my research on you, I feel like there's so many parallels between our lives that I found really interesting. I have a lot of personal questions to ask you.

Laura Warrell: 1:08

That's fun Cool. I like the personal question.

Jessica: 1:11

We have a really special guest, laura Warrell. She is the author of the novel Sweet Soft Plenty Rhythm and has been a finalist for the Penn Falkner Award for Fiction and the Barnes Noble Discover Prize and longlisted for the Andrew Carnegie Medal for Excellence in Fiction. The book was named a Best or Must Read book by Vanity Fair People, los Angeles Times, washington Post, boston Globe, apple Books, the Millions, the Root, hollywood Reporter Bustle. it keeps going on and on and on. Sweet Soft Plenty Rhythm was also chosen as a Good Morning America Buzz Pick, a Barnes Noble Discover pick and an Indie Next List pick. Wow, you have had quite the year.

Laura Warrell: 1:56

It has been a fun year, i will admit it.

Jessica: 1:59

Yes, it's been great We have a lot to talk about, because you just had a major success and this is your first book that you've published. Yes, it's not the first book you've written, but the first book that you've published.

Laura Warrell: 2:13

Exactly.

Jessica: 2:14

And I know it's been a long journey to get here. It has, yes, so I want to dig deep into that journey. But the first question we like to ask our guests before we get into everything else is we like to hear how you experience being yourself. So we ask who are you and how is that different from who you thought you were supposed to be?

Laura Warrell: 2:39

So I love this question and it's very hard to answer. It could go in a lot of different directions. We could get deep and a little tinge of darkness, or be totally sunny, but it's been challenging to not necessarily find myself or figure out who I am. I feel like I've always been clear to myself about who I am. I'm a creative person. I have a worldview that's pretty expansive, very progressive. I'm a very curious person, and so I like to engage with other people's art and other people's ideas. I'm curious about human beings, and it's really important to me to create a world for myself that, by extension, hopefully expands other people's worlds.

Laura Warrell: 3:27

I think one of the key words for me throughout my life has been freedom, and what I mean by that is the freedom to self-actualize, the freedom to live an authentic life and to do what I can to acknowledge other people's humanity.

Laura Warrell: 3:45

So in my own little way I mean this sounds a lot more intentional and dramatic than I actually mean, but I try to be a kind person and generous in the ways that I can help other people live authentically, and part of the challenge has been that that's not an easy way to live.

Laura Warrell: 4:06

It's a hard thing to do if you don't come into the world with a trust fund right And you've got to work your butt off and you've got to deal with things that aren't as easy. It took me about 25 years to finally get a book in the world, and that journey was really, really hard, and especially near the end when I thought it wasn't going to come together, it got very, very scary. And what was challenging about it wasn't that, oh, i want to be on magazine covers and I want everybody to know me. It was that I know who I am and what I'm meant to do in the world, and success means to me being able to do it, and so not having a book in the world meant I have to keep doing things that didn't feel true to who I am and I didn't really feel free. But with the book in the world, now that's starting to happen and the gratitude I feel is so deep.

Jessica: 5:04

It sounds to me, because we often ask that question and people reflect on who they thought they were supposed to be, and where they are is very different from that. But it actually sounds like you knew very clearly when you were younger what you wanted, and then it was this long, long, long journey to actualizing that, absolutely Yeah.

Laura Warrell: 5:26

When I was a little girl, i wrote books and I played school. I pretended I was a teacher And that's what I do. It's grown up And there's a Beastie Boys lyrics I'm going to age myself that whenever I would hear it, one of them says to tell the truth, i'm exactly what I want to be, and it would always excite me when I was younger and it would always fill me with this sort of sense of longing and sadness when I was older and things weren't coming together. Because that's what I want. I want to be exactly who I am. I want everybody to be able to do that, and so, for sure, i knew from an early age I wanted to be an actor.

Laura Warrell: 6:11

But I think that was like a decision that was about, yeah, being in the world and having attention and being a kid and not having enough attention. And no offense to actors, not that, that's what it's all about for them, i understand. But yeah, to me it's not so much about fame and fortune. For sure, as writers That never happens. It's just like I get to wake up, i get to do things that mean something to me, i get to read other people's books, i get to support other people's books. So, yeah, i'm exactly who I wanted to be, who I was meant to be, and I'm doing everything I can to show up for it.

Melissa: 6:48

I'm really interested in how you held on to hope and faith. It sounds like you probably had lots of times where you were questioning that, because I support people for my living that have big dreams like that and help them, bring them to life, and I find that I'm impatient.

Melissa: 7:05

Jess had to work with me a lot on patience And I find this for a lot of people, and even those of us who are willing to put in the work, who are showing up consistently, have really dedicated, which is a small percentage of people in itself. And then to have about 25 years that you went through, where you still held on really tightly to this dream before it became a reality. So what did you do to keep the spark alive over all those years?

Laura Warrell: 7:33

The primary answer, i think, is that I don't want to say that I'm stubborn. I think I just really love doing this work. I follow a lot of writers in social media who always talk about enjoying having written and how hard it is to write. And for sure it's a really hard thing to do and it can be really frustrating, but I love to just sit in front of a computer and try to create a world and work with the character. So I love doing it. So in some ways I couldn't stop myself. There was a point when I was looking for an agent. It took me two years to find an agent. I queried 50 agents.

Laura Warrell: 8:09

There was a period where I thought I don't think this is going to happen And I don't know what to do. It was dark. I started seeing a therapist and doing other things to take care of myself. But at the same time that I was thinking I'm not doing this again, i'm not spending years writing another book It was my fifth And going through everything that I'm doing to network and build a career that's not coming together. Even in the midst of all that, another book was writing itself in my mind. I couldn't stop it And that was part of it.

Laura Warrell: 8:41

But the other piece is. I recognized where my blind spots were With the fourth book. This was a book where I decided, okay, i'm just going to write something that's very commercial so that I can get published and then hopefully move the career into the direction writing the kinds of books that I want to write. And that book didn't sell either. I did have an agent briefly for that. She wasn't able to sell the book And I realized, rather than sort of letting it weigh on me, i realized clearly there's something I'm not getting about writing.

Laura Warrell: 9:13

I love doing it and I think I'm good. I know I have talent, but I'm not selling any books. Part of that's got to be about me, something about my skills. And so I went back to school And once I did that, i got my MFA. There were a lot of people who were there for different reasons and I kept telling all of my mentors I want to get better at this, tell me what I'm not seeing. And it helped. And so part of it was really being honest with myself that this isn't just a dream and it's sad and unfair that it's not coming true. It was that I have to work. It's work. I have to get better. I have to listen to those who I trust and those who I trust to have information and knowledge to tell me where I'm not seeing my own weaknesses as a writer.

Laura Warrell: 10:04

And then, once I got through that program and started writing Sweets Off Plenty Rhythm, i realized I love this book. I believe in the book. It's like a love affair. I feel like as artists we're allowed to use that kind of language, but I'm in love with this book and I wasn't going to give up on it. Like a relationship, like, okay, this isn't the easiest relationship I've had, but I want it, i love it, i believe in it. I think that's part of it. I'm not going to lie. I think I'm not going to be able to use this book. It wasn't published. I don't necessarily know if I would really keep going, but fortunately it was.

Melissa: 10:40

Fortunately, you don't have to know that. Yes, thank you, thank you, Thank you. You're saying so many things about the process of stepping into your true, authentic voice. Some of the things that I heard are you tried to write something that fit the mold of other people's expectations. It didn't work, and then the one that you ended up having your big breakthrough around was a story that you loved and believed in, and it was something very true for you.

Melissa: 11:08

I love that you talked to not being a victim around it although I'm sure it's probably impossible to never have slipped into victim mindset about it but to really take responsibility for your role in it. And what are my gaps? How do I get better at this? What can't I see? Who do I trust to be able to advise me on this And taking really intentional action steps to be able to identify the gaps and what you couldn't see for yourself? And I think those are really valuable practical steps that people can take when they're beating their head against a wall. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result, and so I love that you very intentionally chosen new path to get the results that you desired. So I just wanted to reflect that back, because I think there's just so much brilliance in that. I'm interested in like are there tangible things that you can identify, that you learned through school that helped you shift your writing so that you did get to have this moment?

Laura Warrell: 12:06

Thank you, and thank you for reflecting that back. You've articulated it perfectly And to me that's kind of the magic formula When we think of dreams and goals. Sometimes we maybe feel we deserve them or we just want to help them and we are disappointed when it doesn't come together. But it's work, especially in a creative field. It's work and it's a craft And I knew that going into the MFA program and working with my mentors. I really needed to dig into the craft And so there were very tangible things And this is really embarrassing.

Laura Warrell: 12:42

But I just did a lecture at a school in Portland and I did a lecture about plot and I confess that I was diagnosed as having a problem with plot. I mean, can you imagine as a writer, like your problem is plot? I mean like, oh no, that's a big one. Yeah, that's pretty much everything right. I think that's my problem too. Plot's hard. That's the thing. Plot's hard. People don't realize, especially sort of newer writers. I teach a lot of people who've gone another direction in their careers and then decide I want to write that book that I had an idea for 20 years ago, and they don't realize how difficult plot is And I would almost argue it's the most difficult thing to come up with, to structure and to maintain, and so that's what I learned. I learned it my last semester, which was a total bummer because, like, could somebody have told me this in the beginning so I could have spent more time working on it, but I was open to it And I think again that that's the key.

Laura Warrell: 13:42

My mentor, or told me, was very rigid about what he thought plot was, and so I just said, all right, i'm going to turn this over to you, tell me what a plot is, and in the end, reconfigured a little bit for myself what I was told. So some of it was just on a craft level. I also have an issue with abstraction. I really like language, i like poetry and beautifully written sentences, and sometimes I was sacrificing plot and clarity for abstraction and beauty. So that was something to learn, and so I'm really an advocate for learning and continuing to learn, and that part of our dreams and goals, no matter what they are, is learning how to do the work that is going to make that dream come alive.

Laura Warrell: 14:30

Also, being open to other people, being kind. I'm really an advocate for being kind, especially in creative fields. There's so much competition, there's so much anxiety. There are a lot of people who behave in very cutthroat ways, but coming back to yourself and kindness, and not in a cheesy, goofy way, but just being a decent person and open to other people. Being in a program where there was a little bit of that dynamic of who's the coolest kid in the room and which table's the cool table to be having lunch was a nice reminder of you don't have to engage with that. You can still achieve what you're trying to achieve and be kind to other people. So I think it was that I went back to school and I devoted myself to overcoming whatever those issues were.

Jessica: 15:16

There's another aspect of this that I'd like to ask you about, because part of what I relate to in your journey is I also knew very, very young what I wanted to do And for me it was acting. And then it also has been a long, slow, arduous, drawn out journey to actualization. And I was talking with a mentor last week who presented it to me in a way that I had never quite thought of before And I'm posing it to you because I'm just curious how you might respond to this where she said that the journey from impossible to actualized and embodied in your dream can be really long. If you came from impossible Right And my parents were very supportive I got a lot of opportunities when I was young, but there was no example, there was no one else around me that showed me that it was possible. There was no one like me showing me that it was possible. And, like you said, if you don't come into money or you don't come into certain circumstances where I didn't have actor parents.

Jessica: 16:22

They made a lot of money and whatever it is that makes it seem really accessible.

Laura Warrell: 16:27

Right.

Jessica: 16:28

So what was that for you emotionally? Do you think, in the same way, that you had lessons around your craft? do you think that there were personal lessons that you were growing into in the times that it seemed like nothing was happening for you?

Laura Warrell: 16:42

I also love this question and I totally, totally relate to that sentiment. In fact, i remember my best friend he's also an actor. I was in a period of like what am I doing? When is this going to happen? Why am I continuing? And he said well, of course it's going to be harder for people like us. We're just regular people from regular families, right, and we have supportive families. The same I mean my mother, until the end, was behind me and supportive. Every member of my family was, for the most part.

Laura Warrell: 17:16

I kind of joke that I was cursed with a loving family because that's all they could give me. They're like, yeah, good luck with that. We don't know how you do it, but we're behind you 100%. In fact, i did a book tour. My uncle lives in Dallas and I went through Austin and he drove up or down or wherever Dallas is in relation to Austin, to support me. He surprised me And he bought one of my books and he signed it and said you know, i'm not going to read it.

Laura Warrell: 17:45

I don't read. That's my family. I love them and they are so loving, but they knew nothing. They don't know how to write a book. They don't know how you get a book published, they don't know anybody who does.

Laura Warrell: 17:58

And so for sure, when you come from that kind of background, not only is there no path, it's just this giant overgrown field that you have no idea where to enter or how to get across and you have zero tools and no help. And I think it's something that people don't necessarily realize because we see, especially in writing, at least you see the stories of the person who went to the right school and met the right agent at the right time. And what others may not know is that, like you were saying, their parents are in publishing or their parents are in those artsy communities and sort of clicks, and not to take away any sense of ability and skill and talents and even drive. But it's easier when you know what you're doing. It's easier to get somewhere when you know the directions and you have a map.

Laura Warrell: 18:51

And I didn't realize that in the beginning and I'd be curious of how it was for you. I thought, oh, i wrote a book and I looked for some people to send it to and I sent it and I thought, okay, well, i'll just wait here and then my book will be published. And it took 25 years not only to write the right book but to figure this out I really was on my own for a very, very long time before I started realizing I've got to start figuring out the machinery. And I imagine it's true with acting that some of it is kind of random, some of it's unfair. It's not always a meritocracy. Your hard work is not always rewarded and other people are sitting at the soda fountain not the soda fountain I'm using, that old fashioned and they get discovered and you're like but I've been auditioning for 30 years.

Melissa: 19:39

They're listening to Beastie Boys at the soda fountain, exactly.

Laura Warrell: 19:43

Exactly The same song. I love that song So emotionally. I mean it's hard and I'm not going to lie. I think it's true for so many of us who have goals, no matter what they are, and are working so hard and trying so hard and feeling like you're doing everything that you're learning you should be doing, and watching other people just skate right past you because they came into the world in a way that you didn't, and it's hard not to feel envy, it's hard not to feel resentment even. But I kind of have always felt like we're all on separate paths and, yeah, it would have been nice if my parents were Tony Morrison. Anyway, i'm not going to dream that I love my mother. Tony Morrison is going to be a cool mother too.

Laura Warrell: 20:29

You know it'd be nice if I was born into a situation where I said, hey, i'm a writer, and they said, great, here's this editor and here's this school, and here's this recommendation for you to get into that school, and here's this party where you're going to meet all the right people. But it didn't happen that way. But I also am feeling a sense of joy and contentment that I am not always seeing in people who also have debuts. There's a lot more of anxiety and why didn't I get this? And I'm just here going. I can't believe I got this. This is really nice. There's a lot of gratitude when you know what it means. Yeah, so there's a lot of gratitude.

Jessica: 21:12

Yes, yeah, i'm curious about the self-belief piece. Does that grow the more that you gain experience and confidence as a writer, or do you think there's another aspect to it that has nothing to do with the writing at all that you needed to develop in terms of feeling like this is really possible for me.

Laura Warrell: 21:32

I think that the longer I'm alive, the more I realize how lucky those of us who love our families are, And that sounds kind of trite, but you know, my mother and eventually my stepfather, my grandparents, my uncles, and later I had siblings my mother remarried have believed in me from the beginning Again, this is aging me. My mother said, oh, she writes, and bought me a typewriter. I always had something to write on. And so when things started getting hard, I was confused Cause I was like, wait a minute, I'm supposed to be able to do anything. So I had the love right, And it was the love that made me feel that way. I didn't have any of the opportunities or background or necessarily the privileges, but I had the love, and the love made me feel like I have something to offer the world and it's a matter of time and place before the world receives it, And I thank my family for that on a regular basis.

Laura Warrell: 22:28

But I also think I was an only child and I've always been a little different for a variety of reasons. When I was a girl it was a little bit more challenging, but as I got older I got more comfortable with the fact that I'm different Part of the self-belief I think came with really appreciating the ways that I'm different. I feel like for whatever reason, because of the way that I was raised or because of the experiences I had I was a black girl in a predominantly white environment growing up and so that would automatically put me into this sort of isolated place of being different that I got comfortable with it And I appreciated who I was And I realized these things that I like, whether it was books or music or whatever else. I really like them And the fact that nobody else does or that they aren't that popular I'm okay with because I really like them.

Laura Warrell: 23:25

I liked my own company and because I liked the books that I read and I could listen to the music and dance by myself, And so I became my own friend and that sounds really corny. I'm not trying to say that I'm the most interesting, exciting person in the world, but I like myself. I think that's part of what has kept me going is enjoying my own company. I like reading my own work. Sometimes I like to just sit around and think, And so I guess that's part of it. I believe in myself in that way.

Melissa: 23:53

I love that. I wanna kind of circle back to a couple of things that you said about being a regular person from a regular family and not having a roadmap, and that's a big part of why we wanted to do Inner Rebel was because we wanted to tell people's stories, because when you say, even to Jessica's question, i didn't have somebody like me showing me what was possible. That's why we're here And I think most people relate more to I'm a regular person, maybe not from a regular family, but maybe in a irregular family, depending on their viewpoint. But that's most of us. When you come to this life with an extraordinary soul calling there's not a map for it, there's just not, because no one is gonna bring that book to life in the way in which you were supposed to bring that book to life so that you could be the vision holder for somebody else and say, hey, i didn't have this, this and this, but I had love and these are really key elements And here's what I learned so I can help you maybe do it a little bit more efficiently or with less struggle than I had.

Melissa: 24:54

And I think it's really normal to be like how do I do this crazy dream that was placed in my heart that I can't not do because I'm being pulled towards it so strongly. I think it's something that so many of us struggle with, and I do wanna say that even having love and belief is a leg up, because so many people, even people we brought on here, their families, didn't get them. Even if they can't show you how to be able to say I don't know how to do this with you, but I love you and I believe that you can do anything you set your mind to is really critical, and I think that we have to find those people, whether it comes from family or it comes from found family, that finding those people that can see that light in you to help you be able to see it along the path You know you're absolutely right.

Laura Warrell: 25:40

It is a privilege in some ways, emotionally at least to have a loving family. That's one of the reasons that I bring it up. a lot is that I know a lot of people who don't, and it's not even about their dreams. There's a lot of drama right That they're dealing with because they didn't have a family that was loving. And so I absolutely agree with you I feel very lucky, even though I kind of joke about it, i feel very lucky. I tell them all the time how grateful I am to them for their support.

Melissa: 26:07

I actually really appreciate that you said it feels embarrassing to admit that I had to learn about plot as a writer, and I think that those are the important things to say out loud, because how many other writers are out there are like, oh my God, if it's the hardest part to get, then probably most people are not getting it And to be able to admit the things. I think it's a really important thing as leaders to be able to say this is something that I really thought that I should know, that I thought I was getting but I don't know it. So I just wanted to honor that in you too, because I'm sure a lot of people that are listening are like, hmm, maybe that's something that I'm missing too.

Laura Warrell: 26:40

Well, i brought it up because I was teaching a class and there were about eight people in the class and we were talking about plot, and these are all aspiring writers and some of them have been published or they've been in other programs. And one woman said you know, i'm just gonna say it, i don't understand plot, i don't get it. And one of the other women said, yeah, me too. And they all sort of raised their hands And so then I decided, okay, i'm gonna create this lecture around plot.

Laura Warrell: 27:07

But I think that in general, in our culture, i think we talk a lot about our emotional and psychological lives right, we are being more forthcoming about trauma, we're being more forthcoming about our emotional struggles, and I'm really glad about that But I don't think we're as forthcoming about the practical struggles of building a life, particularly a life that's creative or one that is led by a dream or a goal, that's outside of tradition or at least convention in your own family and background. We don't talk about failure, we don't talk about the struggle, we don't talk about whatever it is that we recognize might be an issue in our achieving our goals. Like, wow, i don't get plot, or as a writer, i'm really shy and I don't like to engage with other people, how can I still build a career? I think a lot of writers aren't forthcoming about their journey to publication. So we do hear about the writer who sent a letter to five agents and then is winning awards, or the actor who came to LA and within six months was on the top rated TV show, and not enough about the person who was here for 30 years and suddenly became Viola Davis, right.

Laura Warrell: 28:31

And so I wish that we told those stories more, because not only would those people who gave up and maybe would have succeeded if they hadn't, or the people who aren't giving up but are struggling, would realize that's the norm. The norm, at least in writing, is that you're gonna send your book to 50 agents, you're gonna go to audition after audition as an actor and not get a part. That's the norm. And so if we shared those stories, i think not only would people stick with their dreams longer, but it would just be a nicer life. Not that we all wanna be sad and crying into our tea or our wine glasses, but the idea being that I'm just gonna be honest. This is a pretty hard thing to do, and having other people support that and be honest about the challenges in their lives. We could all just support each other.

Jessica: 29:23

I think there's some wisdom and understanding that things take their own time. Sometimes it just goes really slowly. And I think we're fed a lot of stories that if there isn't this sort of instant gratification, if it isn't coming right away, that there's something wrong or there's something wrong with you or it's not gonna happen. And that comes from other people too, Like they look at you and they're like well, it's been a decade, When are you gonna try something else? So it takes a lot of inner conviction to stay on a path when it doesn't seem like anything is happening to trust that a lot is happening under the surface. Our timeline isn't necessarily the universe's timeline.

Laura Warrell: 30:04

People have asked me about this journey to publication because it was long and hard. People keep asking you didn't give up? How come you didn't give up? The advice that I often give writers who are struggling is don't give up. But I always qualify that by saying everybody tells you don't give up, but that doesn't mean that you just sit there not giving up right To me. Keep doing the work, keep taking classes, keep talking to other people who do what you do, keep supporting other people who do what you do, because I think part of that dream coming true isn't just the timing, it's the work that you've put in to meet it. What do you do?

Melissa: 30:52

Melissa, can I ask? I am a business alignment coach and a community creator And I had a traditional career, corporate career and I left that and building my huge soul dreams right now, and so I think, even though you're speaking to writing, this is something that speaks to anybody that's on a less conventional path, those of us that are insane enough to want to be entrepreneurs or to build our own business. You know, these are all lessons that apply to all of us, so I think it's incredibly relevant.

Laura Warrell: 31:22

Yeah, and I guess that's my point, is that, to me, what I think is more frustrating is when you want the dream and you're just sort of feeling the lack of it, versus putting stuff into the lack, which is work And not in a way, you know, I don't mean toil, i mean working on your craft.

Laura Warrell: 31:43

I was just flying and there was a woman next to me who was reading a book and taking a lot of notes and I could tell that she wants to be a life coach based on what she was saying, what she was reading. Then she was talking to her boyfriend and she was doing so much work in that flight. She had cards, she had notes, she was reading, she was highlighting, and to me I was like she's going to succeed. And to me that's the difference, right, between having the dream and hoping it comes to you versus having the dream hoping it comes to you and doing the work. She's gonna be a good life coach because of the work she's doing And so eventually, when those opportunities come, she's gonna be prepared right, she's gonna meet them. There's a quote related to that that is totally escaping my mind, right, that opportunity and luck are some kind of meeting between them. But that's what I mean is continuing to work on it.

Jessica: 32:38

Preparation meets opportunity. There it is, thank you, thank you. But there's also an aspect of your journey because you were so persistent And I think you said that you reached out to 50 agents before you found one A lot of people would interpret even one no to mean I'm not supposed to do this or as a failing. I had some really great advice years ago where someone said you're interpreting the nose to mean it's the end of the road. Like, this isn't for you.

Jessica: 33:05

But, what if it's just a pivot? Or what if it's just this isn't the right fit, or not right now, Or it's moving you in the direction to where you will find success. So not seeing it as something so final. I'm curious when you're getting rejection after rejection maybe you didn't see it as rejection, I'm not sure But when you're getting all these nos, how did you anchor in your conviction and your resiliency in order to keep going?

Laura Warrell: 33:31

I think there are two things that would be relevant to anyone who's listening, And the first is really believing in the work, believing in your skills, believing in your product, believing in your service and knowing, without self aggrandizing, people need this, People will like this. That's what kept me going with every rejection, really believing in the work And I keep using the word craft but continuing to craft it. Whenever I was getting rejections I cried and I was sad and I called my support network. But I also looked at the feedback and thought is there anything I can take from this to make that book better? And that was what ultimately got me to the first drafts of the book that I sent out when I was first looking for an agent, versus the final draft that's on the shelf. It really evolved because I didn't just sort of sit with the dream and the goal and the frustration of not having it. I tried to make the work better And so I think that's a huge piece.

Jessica: 34:36

What I'm seeing is it's like a conversation that you're having, because it's one thing to just go oh, it must mean my work sucks and I'm not supposed to do this, and another to be like, okay, i'm getting this feedback Doesn't mean that it's over, it doesn't mean my work isn't good, but what is it about the feedback that is constructive, yes, and how do I actually apply that And then take the next step?

Laura Warrell: 34:58

See, you guys are great. You're like editors. This is why writers need some people to say this is what you're actually saying. Right, This is a semi-curious, coherent way. I do this really well, but I need to edit.

Melissa: 35:10

You're very coherent, thank you. I'd like to just kind of reiterate themes, because there are themes that come up. We listen for the themes, right. But I actually am curious because my background is sales. I have I don't know, i'm 40, so 18, 19 years of sales experience, and you were doing sales. I don't think everyone needs a career in sales, but I think people need to understand what sales actually is, because if you have a dream and you're pitching yourself over and over again and you believe in yourself and you're trying to say, hey, i have this idea, you're trying to enroll other people into getting on board with your idea and that is sales And the amount of knows that you get.

Melissa: 35:46

I wish that I could count how many knows I've gotten in my life. I'm certain it's like a six figure number of knows that I've gotten in my life in pursuit of whatever I'm up to, whether it was selling a product, whether it was trying to enroll my child to do something I wanted him to do, or my husband, or inviting people into a business opportunity, or whatever it is. You get so many knows. It is inevitable, and I find that I've done a lot of business coaching. I've also been in a direct sales company for eight years, which is a lot of knows.

Melissa: 36:17

You can't just quit because it didn't work one time, one way, or five times one way. To make no mean something different is incredibly important. And to keep coming back and doing what you did which is refine And maybe, one know, doesn't have anything to do with you because of the lens in which that person sees the whole world or how busy they are, what they had on their plate Cause it doesn't necessarily mean I suck, i'm never gonna be good at this thing, but I love your story of refinement, of persistence, of devotion and commitment to keep coming back, and that is something that you have to have in order to quote unquote, make it in a regular world.

Laura Warrell: 36:59

I'm glad you said that, because I think it's true of absolutely everything. We constantly are being rejected, we're constantly hearing no And sort of using the analogy of sales And I have not done sales so I could not be using the.

Melissa: 37:15

You have. you just did it for 25 years, That's true.

Laura Warrell: 37:19

And I guess that's a really good way to put it right Is that you've got your pitch and then you've got the product or the service. So when you keep getting knows, rather than going, well, i'm just gonna go out there and try again, like, okay, do I need to change my pitch? Do I? can I change the product, or not change, but alter it? How can I modify it so I can start getting a yes? I also compare it to dating in a way. Right, you need to find one. Right, you need to find one person who loves what you do, and then everything opens up. Right.

Laura Warrell: 37:50

And it's just as hard sometimes to find that one person who's gonna give you your first role or give you a show at their gallery or a book deal. And that's what happened to me. It took me 25 years, five books, 50 query letters, et cetera. But once I got that agent, i've just kind of been able to sit back and let well, i'm not totally letting things happen, but now I'm here and now I can build a career, and so it's just a matter of telling yourself there are all kinds of reasons why people are saying no. Sometimes it's because they're having a bad day and you just got them at the wrong moment.

Laura Warrell: 38:31

It hurts, it's painful to hear a no, but it definitely doesn't mean, especially as a creative person. There's your craft and your art and what it gives you and the joy of doing it, and then there's a market. There's a difference between your writing and your skill and your craft and the business that you're trying to access And you have to somehow shield yourself against the inevitable discomfort of the marketplace and the rejection of the marketplace that everybody suffers. Our richest people in the world right now can list all of the rejection and the failures that got them to the Forbes whatever 500 list. It's just a part of life And I think a lot of times the difference between people who achieve their goals and those that don't is that they gave up or they didn't keep working at it. Keep getting better.

Jessica: 39:29

You kind of just brought it up but I knew you were like, yes, we get to talk about this. Ooh, this is gonna be juice. I wanna talk about dating. So another thing that you and I have in common is that both of us went through a divorce and then it was like bear in land. I think there's parallels in things just taking their sweet time, and that has also been true for me in my love life And I also read your article that you wrote I gave up on love and it was the best decision I ever made. I am a little bit intrigued. We're talking a lot about not giving up, why it actually felt like the right decision to give up on love.

Laura Warrell: 40:08

That's interesting. So I would say this The first piece is that I have no control over meeting somebody. Yeah, i could use apps and stuff, but there's nothing that I can do or change about who I am to make myself more attractive to a partner. This is it right. I do think that I had a kind of revelation, and it might sound The language that I'm going to use is probably not the best language to use, but hopefully it will get me there.

Laura Warrell: 40:42

I realized it's really unpleasant for me to be on apps. I don't like it for a lot of reasons and as a black woman, unfortunately, i'm like the least desirable. Every year they're like hey, we just wanted to remind everybody that the people who get the least amount of likes on apps are black women and Asian men. They constantly Yeah, so it's particularly hard Wow, yeah, to do that type of thing. So it wasn't just like dating is a pain in the butt. It's like if I go on here, the chances are really slim. So what I kind of realized is this is very unpleasant. It's making me feel bad about myself, it's taking time away from all the other things I like about living and there's nothing that I can do to just make a man materialize. I'm going to live my life. I'm going to go, do all the things that I love doing, and for sure I'm going to notice that there are attractive men around and hope that they come talk to me, and if they do, let's see where that leads. But I'm not going to do anything about it anymore because there's nothing I really can do versus with writing. I can do stuff, i can write something new, i can improve something that I've already worked on, so that was part of it, and that's what I mean with control. Not that I only want to engage with things that I have control over, but literally I don't have any control over this. I'm going to stay as alive and present in my own life as I always have, and in fact, i'm even more present because I'm not sitting there going. When is somebody going to talk to me? Who's that? Should I go to this thing so I can meet a boy? I'm just going to live and be happy. That's one piece, and the other piece is I'm older now, obviously.

Laura Warrell: 42:35

When I wrote that piece for Huffington Post, i think that was like 2018. There was about a year where I really wasn't paying attention and I felt okay about being single And then I sunk again and felt kind of lousy about it. But then, with the book out, things have changed And for sure I would still like to meet someone. For sure I still imagine a life with someone else and hope, especially living in LA in an apartment If I could just meet somebody and I could maybe have a house or at least a two-bedroom conno anyway. So I still think about it, for sure.

Laura Warrell: 43:11

But I'm also so centered in my own life and the joy of my own life that that doesn't hurt as much that I don't have a partner. Or I'll put it this way The only reason I want a partner is for the joys of having a partner intimacy, love, companionship. There's no hole, any kind of hole, has been filled with myself and my work and now the world has received it And that helps. And so I guess the point in bringing that piece up is when you focus on building your own life and achieving your goals and working on your dreams and it starts coming together. Sadness, anxiety, frustration starts to dissipate.

Laura Warrell: 44:06

And so I think it's those two pieces. I just decided I'm going to focus on what I can actually do And then, once it started working. I feel happy, i like being alive and it would be great to meet somebody. That would be a nice addition. I couldn't say that around the time I wrote that essay And a few years later I've started feeling lousy again. But I can honestly say now I feel really good about where I am. And then, being a writer and having any success as a writer brings all kinds of other anxieties and things that you need to occupy your mind with, but it's worth it.

Jessica: 44:40

I'm curious after dreaming about something for 25 years, it finally became a reality, And in a really big way. what does that feel like for you?

Laura Warrell: 44:51

I'll say the less sunny part first, since we're talking about people coming about these journeys. For me, it taking so long makes me scared about it going away. Right, when you work for something for so long, you're like, okay, it's here now. I'm not saying no to things. I'm over-taxing myself. I haven't had a vacation in more than a year and I need to let that go. I need to just trust that if I keep doing the work, it's not going to go away.

Laura Warrell: 45:25

And there is anxiety, especially in creative fields, as we talked about. Not everybody is like hey, welcome, you're great, i'm glad you're with us. Sometimes you have people who have their own issues and egos. So there is still anxiety, there is still a lot of work, there is still fear, but there is also an immense amount of joy and endless gratitude. I would say. Related to your last question, i hope that I don't only get one thing the partner or the career, but I will say it's so meaningful and immensely gratifying to wake up every day and my tasks are about writing. I write, i read, i write lectures, i talk to people like you and it's all about the thing I love most in the world.

Jessica: 46:16

A little fairy came down Now that I'm experiencing it, even with the anxieties it causes, like all right, i'll take the career, because it means that you are self-expressed and you are self-actualized in your wholeness. So you're right that someone else becomes an addition, but they're not there to complete you, absolutely. You are complete.

Laura Warrell: 46:34

Yeah, exactly, i'm perfectly articulated. I need to. Just I don't know why I'm, i'm just afraid of like if I take my foot off the pedal. Yeah, but.

Jessica: 46:47

I've also proven, though, that the pedal isn't necessarily going to take you where you think it's going to take you. Right, yeah, yeah.

Melissa: 46:53

This is one of my biggest like soap boxes around, taking action from fear and taking action from love and taking action from trust. And when we get the thing again, it's like how do I want to feel in pursuit of whatever is to come? And I'm a really big proponent of sustainable, holistic success. And if we put all of our eggs in the traditional success basket then we crumble or health will fail. And it's very hard, It's not easy. And when we look at longevity of a dream, how do we want to feel in pursuit? Because it's all about the journey, It's not about the destination. How do I nourish and take care of myself while still acknowledging the fear and the anxiety that comes with? I don't want it to go away. I love it so much. I think it's a lifelong process of figuring out that dance of balance.

Laura Warrell: 47:41

Well, i really appreciated the question you asked about when you're not sort of born onto the path right, you're not born into a community of people who know how to get you where you're trying to go, and I think that that's part of it too, that once you finally do have it right, then you're like okay, i don't even know how to keep it.

Jessica: 48:02

That happened to me Yeah, I did really well went viral and then the amount of pressure I felt to sustain it, to deliver my next thing, was actually debilitating.

Laura Warrell: 48:11

Oh, really To me at the time. Yeah, how did you get through that?

Jessica: 48:15

I didn't make anything. Yeah, i've gone five years since I've made that, you know, so we're six years. Yeah, i mean, a lot of other things happened in my life. My marriage ended and I had to put my attention in other places anyway, but I think I had to heal. That's what I did, is, i had to heal a lot of what was driving my career forward, which was, I think, rooted in what you were talking about with actors, like wanting to be validated, wanting to be seen in a particular way And I still want to be an actor, but I want to do it from not the place of having to deliver expectations to others, but for my own joy and my own play and my own fulfillment and wanting to be of service in different ways.

Laura Warrell: 48:54

But I had to check that, i had to clear that for me, you know, it's really interesting that you say that, because I'm older I'm going to be 52 in August And I think when you start getting into this part of middle age you stop giving F as much. You know what I mean, because you see how big and immense life is and that your dreams, as important as they are, are just part of something larger in your own life and the anxieties and stuff start to kind of diminish. So my point is that I'm not freaking out as much as a lot of my peers are who've had debuts in the last year, and I think that's part of it. But I am still feeling some anxieties and I am still having days where I am worrying about things And I wish that we could go to each other, not only literally the writers that I'm talking about, just all of us in general. We can't admit that. It's hard, you know. We can't admit that we're afraid or scared or anxious, And I kind of wish that we could.

Laura Warrell: 50:05

This is the challenge of success, right Is that it can be isolating. People are being strange to you. People who you thought were your friends disappear. People who never gave you the time of day suddenly want to be your best pal. You're worried about it going away. You're worried about why am I not on that list? And does it mean anything that I wasn't reviewed here, which is not what you want to do. You just want to work. You just want to do the writing or the craft, but I wish we could talk about that more.

Laura Warrell: 50:34

I wish we would acknowledge that too, because it makes it easier to focus on the more positive, uplifting parts of the journey.

Jessica: 50:43

It goes to show like we think it's gonna solve all our problems, right? It's like if I just get the thing, then all my problems go away, but you just get new problems or not necessarily problems. The wanting never actually ends, it just goes to the next level, right? And sometimes that can be helpful when we're really pursuing something, to remember that your life is still right here right now. It's not actually in the thing you're chasing.

Melissa: 51:07

My mentor had us do some reflections on what did she call it Like the wanting and the havingness, or wantingness or havingness, whatever her language was of.

Melissa: 51:15

Like what is your experience of the wanting and what is the experience of the having?

Melissa: 51:20

What do you have now that you wanted before? And the thing that I'm also present to as you're talking is this is why I'm so passionate about community and so passionate about creating conscious community and being in intimate circles, because the only world I wanna live in is the one where we are talking about all the things, because we're all dealing with them, and I think part of how we do that is we learn to do it in safe containers with people who can hold it, where it is the norm, and then we go out in the world and we be the example and we be the permission, and it's not normal to do that. But now I am like the one that says the thing that's like are you guys thinking this? Are you dealing with this? And I think being that person is a gift. You get to make it normal in the circles that you're in, and then people are like oh, i'm so glad you said that, like I've been thinking that, but I thought I wasn't allowed to talk about that.

Laura Warrell: 52:10

I think that is a big part of what we get to create as women who are consciously creating our careers and our lives and normalizing the shit that we're all thinking anyway, And part of it is that it's healing right, That it's being able to say I'm really struggling or I'm really worried about this, and having someone receive it and hear it heals it so that you can move forward and do the next thing you need to do. But it also makes you realize, oh, this is just a part of the process. If all of the writers who have had to go to more than 30 or 40 agents before they found one would voice that everybody would go, oh then this is normal, right? I'm not being singled out by the universe to have a particularly challenging experience. This is just how this works, or that there's a range of how it works.

Melissa: 53:02

I'm feeling like this is your gift, like this is part of who you get to be in the world and the bigger picture transformation that you get to make because we always create the thing we wish we had right And you're like, oh, i wish I had circles where this was said, and you're, i don't know. That's just what my intuition is like. Maybe that's who you get to be.

Laura Warrell: 53:19

Well, thank you and I'm happy to be it. I mean, that's why I tell people how old I am. I tell people it took me 25 years and 50 agents. It would be ridiculous for me to be like, oh yeah, I just wrote this really great book And now I mean, come on, that would be untrue and also totally unhelpful And I needed somebody like me 15 years ago to say this was really hard, but it eventually happened.

Melissa: 53:48

Yeah, yeah, The Lizzo documentary I just love. Lizzo She said something like this. I don't remember exactly what she said, but was like I always wanted to see this, this, this and this and this. I just didn't know it was gonna have to be me.

Laura Warrell: 54:02

Yeah, and I think she's another person who's incredibly inspiring. What I like about this moment in our culture is that it feels like we are acknowledging the challenges of being a human being. I think that's exciting because we are hopefully helping each other, and I wish we didn't feel so embarrassed about, as I said, our failures or our blind spots or whatever else, so that we could help each other and get through them.

Jessica: 54:30

Yeah, it's the most universal thing. All of us are operating from that same wound. And yet we all like to pretend that we're the only one that doesn't feel it Right, right.

Laura Warrell: 54:43

And that there's some shame in being scared or having a failure. It's just life. I don't know. I mean having 25 years of failure and having success versus never having experienced any failure and having a life that feels emotionally safer. I don't think ultimately it's worth it, right.

Laura Warrell: 55:05

So often when we read those articles about what people say on their deathbeds or in hospice or whatever else, it's always I wish I spent more time with the people I loved and I wish I would have tried to follow my dreams and do something with my life that felt more meaningful, outside of my either boring job or whatever work I felt obligated to do, for whatever reason. I have a tattoo. Actually. That's like writing and love. Those are the two things, right. The work that we do in the world that means something to us and the connections we have. That feels to me like a meaningful life, and there's going to be failure and disappointment and rejection along the way to both of those. And even once you have that, even if you have a happy marriage, there's still gonna be moments of estrangement and difficulty, and that's just life.

Jessica: 55:51

Yeah.

Melissa: 55:52

This is so good.

Jessica: 55:53

Embracing the totality, all the whole experience.

Melissa: 55:58

Well, and I think your path, even what you were saying around not having the love the thing that I was really present to is your commitment to how you want to feel in the process of obtaining something that's outside of you and you don't like the way it feels to be on apps.

Melissa: 56:16

So the things that didn't feel aligned to you you stopped doing which you do have control over and you started to live in alignment with your values, trust, joy, gratitude are things I've heard you say multiple times, and that you're committed to living a life centered around your values and letting go of the things that didn't feel the way that you wanted to feel. even as you pursue your next book, you have these lessons in your body of. I know how it feels to go about something that abandons who I am.

Melissa: 56:45

I know how it feels to live in joy and do something with joy at the center of the pursuit of this thing And I think, as long as you keep doing that, you will have the and you will have all the things you dream of. That, to me, is the key to living a life well lived, as all the things that you're speaking about. I think that it's been such an honor to hear your story and to have you take us inside of the real, raw, vulnerable truths that you've been up against, as well as the joy and the gratitude and getting to celebrate what has happened and then who you get to continue to be to make more of these miracles come to life. It's just been such an honor to have you here.

Laura Warrell: 57:24

Thank you, that's really nice of you to say, and I think a key to it is don't do things that make you feel bad about yourself. It's really wonderful to have a partner, but if you're doing things that make you feel bad and cry all the time, maybe it's not the direction to go. I think that looking for joy, looking for meaning, looking for things that align with your values and who you are and who you wanna be in the world, staying in that direction, even if it takes longer, is gonna get where you wanna go and or to a place that maybe you didn't expect, that still feels meaningful and joyful to you.

Jessica: 58:04

I think we also call in our best partners when we're in our self-worth. So when we're feeling terrible about ourselves or operating from desperation, it's really easy to find yourself in something that isn't actually what you're longing for.

Laura Warrell: 58:18

I remember I was in a relationship with a guy this is a while back and I had this moment of clarity. It's like, wow, i am really not in a good place because he's not in a really good place, but I think this is his usual place And I'm so sorry, that's true for him. But I need to figure out what's wrong and come out of that. And so I totally agree with you And the people that I'm meeting now and attracting even just as friends. We're in alignment, i feel good with them, i feel comfortable with them, i enjoy their company. It's a mutual exchange of support and friendship and laughter, and that's the place we all wanna be, i think.

Melissa: 59:01

Yeah, our lives become a match of the energetic frequency that we're carrying, and so you're now attracting people that are operating at your frequency.

Jessica: 59:09

Yeah, it feels good. So don't give up trust the journey. Keep coming back to self-love. That's what I'm taking. Thank you so much.

Laura Warrell: 59:19

Yes, absolutely, thank you.

Jessica: 59:21

It was a pleasure, such a pleasure, to meet you And good luck to both of you, thank you, and I hope everybody goes and reads your book today. It's beautiful. Hey there, rebels. If you enjoyed this podcast, we would love your support in a few quick ways. You could like, follow or subscribe on your preferred platform to help others discover us too. You could also leave us a review. We also have a Facebook group and you can find us at facebookcom. Slash groups slash interrebel podcast, and you can find us on Instagram at interrebelpodcast. Your support means everything to us and we can't wait to continue this journey together.