Jill Heiman: Dancing in the Dark - How to Break Free from Anxiety, Depression, and Limiting Beliefs

Jessica: 0:00

If you enjoy this episode, we would love it if you would leave us a review, give us a follow or a like and share it with your friends. Thanks, rebels.

Melissa: 0:11

To even question what you've been told is true is incredibly courageous. It doesn't always feel like courage. What looks like courage to other people, for me it feels like survival. This is our personal medicine. If I'm surrounded by thinkers, by lovers, by passion, by integrity, then I really do think that I know who I am. There is a piece that is indescribable when you're being who you are and you're living your purpose Not going to come to the end of my life and be like I didn't live the life I was meant to live- Can I be so comfortable in the unknown and so comfortable in that uncertainty that every version of it is going to be okay?

Melissa: 0:47

This is the Inner Rebel podcast.

Jessica: 0:58

Hey rebels, in our conversation today, we do talk about sensitive and adult subject matter. We mentioned sexuality and an instance of sexual assault, and there is some explicit language. We know this may trigger some people, so please use your discretion and take care of yourself today.

Melissa: 1:14

Welcome rebels to the Inner Rebel podcast. Hello Jessica, hello Jill, hello ladies, this is such a highlight of my week. We have Jill Hyman here with us today and Jill gosh. When I was getting ready for this interview, I was looking back over our journey and I know I interviewed you years ago when I first started to do this, in a way less professional fashion, if you will. I'm really excited to talk again because life has shifted a lot, as it does, over the last several years. Before we dive in, I'm going to share a little bit about who you are. Jill Hyman is the founder of Awake Journey, a safe haven for Powerhouse, powerpower house. I love that Powerhouse women to create their dreams into reality by flowing from overdrive into purpose driven, which we talk a lot about on here. Jill is a vision coach, mindset mentor, bestselling author and intuitive guide that currently resides among the mountains outside of Asheville, north Carolina, at her retreat sanctuary, the Nest, which we all need to go to, oh wow.

Melissa: 2:22

Yeah, we'll just put it out there that we'll all be there one day together and she runs a visionary sisterhood through her Business Awake Journey, so welcome Welcome to the Inner Rebel podcast Hello Jessica, Hello Jill, so nice to meet you.

Jessica: 2:37

Thank you for joining us today I'm squeezing you.

Jill Heiman: 2:40

Oh, I'm so excited.

Melissa: 2:42

We spend zero time on the surface, we jump into the deep end immediately which. I know you like to exist there too. I enjoy cannonballs. Yeah, you will be cannonballing from the get go. Inner Rebel is all about really embracing your authenticity and defining the expectations that were put on you from all of the external influences that we have in life. So we're curious how do you identify as who you are, and how is that different than who you were taught you were supposed to be or who you thought you should be?

Jill Heiman: 3:14

Yeah, it's such a big question. I know I am so thrilled to be here because this is powerful work that Inner Rebel and you two ladies are bringing forward, and for me it's about it's been coming to a place of embodiment of my unique frequency that I operate in. I like to say it's a sacred union or sacred marriage of my fiery action and my watery flow and being able to find that marriage and myself of now we fucking go on for this one. We moving forward. I'm taking all of my strategic, logical brain power. We're going to get it, maximize results, while also like, hold on, hold on, sweet girl, we need to take a bath, we need some epsom salt, go get yourself a massage. It's been an ever evolving dance in those two energies.

Jill Heiman: 4:15

Who I thought that I was going to be? I think it's an interesting question because I always had this internal thing pinballing inside me of like there has to be more than life. There has to be more than life, there has to be. I literally heard this on repeat from a very young age, whether it was because my soul chose this human experience and I was born in the amazing state of Kansas and although the state's amazing, it is surrounded and it's in the shape of a box. Right yeah, and it's not beyond me. All of the work that I've done, of like of course, my journey has been one of getting real far outside of this box and into the sphere that most suits me. That's been my journey of owning my inner rebel.

Jessica: 5:09

I love it. Can you describe a little bit of what that box was growing up for you?

Melissa: 5:15

outside of, like actual Kansas. But I do love that vision Like you're literally born in a box.

Jill Heiman: 5:22

Something else. My mother's womb was not a box. That was a beautiful little space but, like anyone else, had a lot of shoulds placed on me. I was an athlete, I played all the sports and did all of that which we've all heard about. My journey has been one of really learning how to play in the darkness, and I've gotten a heck of a lot of experiences that afforded me the opportunity to really meet myself in the dark spaces, given experiences that I found myself in some not so welcoming, if you will. And so it was a lot of my body informing me too, without me knowing. My body was informing me.

Jill Heiman: 6:11

Depression for well over a decade got on medication, for it was just really having a lot of anxiety and panic attacks. I remember one time I went to Las Vegas right and my 20s was parting my ass off let's be real and trying to numb things out. I remember in this hotel space, I didn't know what was happening to me. I'm supposed to be having fun, fun trip with my girlfriends. I've never talked about the story. I find myself in the hallway at one point and then I'm like literally in the bathtub having a onset panic attack. My friend doesn't know what to do I have alcohol pulsing in my system, which only aids that right Panic attack. It's only aiding the anxiety, and that lingered on for several years until I was actually able to go into the darkness and begin my personal healing of self of these experiences that I had at a young age.

Melissa: 7:05

Did you know that it was a panic attack? Because I had panic attacks in college and I called an ambulance because I thought I was having a heart attack. I had no idea what it was. So I'm curious was that your first one, and did you know what was happening?

Jill Heiman: 7:18

Yeah, I got really familiar with the difference between anxiety attack and a panic attack, which I'm not like over here giving myself a ribbon for At that time I didn't know what it was, so it was like heart pulsing really quickly. Am I coming down from lots of alcohol, right, like it doesn't help if you're out partying. But then when I stepped away from that lifestyle of drinking and partying and then it was still continuing, I like to call anxiety like a snowball effect Something will happen that then it builds on. Other things are happening and it's build on, build on, build on, whereas at least for me, a panic attack is an immediate trigger, that is, my body's responding in a way that is like this isn't welcome, oh my gosh, like what's going on. And it's been a real deep practice of lots of modalities to support my nervous system.

Melissa: 8:07

So many modalities.

Jessica: 8:09

I'm really curious, because I know a lot of people who struggle with anxiety what is your relationship with anxiety now, and what kind of messenger do you think anxiety is for you, about what's going on in you?

Jill Heiman: 8:25

Maybe I can start to feel that vibration when I'm in a place of overwhelm, which now I'm aware, whatever the overwhelm might be, or specifically living in a period of unknown which is like constant for me at this stage. I've reprogrammed myself very well and I've supported my nervous system to be able to work through it. I think it takes a lot of self practice. Everything for me, stems back to my thoughts. I can specifically know what frequency I'm vibrating at my body level. If I think about okay, here's my thought patterns, of course anxiety is going to come up because I'm literally going through my to-do list at a one million rate clip with no solution, and then I'm allowing that to repeat and what happens is that's only going to expand, because that's the law of attraction no matter what the thought is, it will expand.

Jill Heiman: 9:20

It could be a negative frequency. I'm sitting here like F I got this do, I got this, do this do and I got to hang out with my man. Oh shit, self care, right, okay, then I'm like amplifying because I'm attracting that in. So for me it's been a real conscious mastering my mind tenfold every day.

Jessica: 9:40

I really want to come back to mastering your mind, but I just want to follow up with the question around the panic attack, because you mentioned that comes from a specific trigger. Can you speak to that messenger when your body goes into panic?

Jill Heiman: 9:53

Panic for me is when she's not safe. She is my body. When my body's not safe, then there's a panic. So at 19, I'll share with everyone. I got really curious and I was like, let's have this threesome with these two guys Cool, I trusted them. I was at a college party. I went by myself From there, I was putting my clothes on and, in walks, five men pull their pants down, put condoms on and sit on the bed. And so at 19, when I talk about being put in a box, I've done an immense amount of work to be able to show up in this space of energetic neutral, to be able to share this story. But the whole box analogy is, on a whole high level, scope for me, right Of wow. And then this experience I'm literally locked in a room that is a box and I can't get out. This was my deepest level of healing. That then unlocked so many things because I promised myself, when I got out of that room and then I stepped on that porch, that I would never talk about it again and, funnily enough, it has kind of become.

Jill Heiman: 11:01

I think the year of 2019 was my year of. I did a lot of podcasts and this is all I talked about was offering healing space for women that have been sexually assaulted or abused in any manner. So my body related safety was pretty much thrown out the window. And then I can date back to other times as all of you out there listening and I'm sure both of you right Many times, as young women don't be emotional Shhh, silent, right, we've all heard those things. So then that was already I'm not safe. But then a really big tea trauma event that I got to work through to recalibrate what safety is in my body.

Jessica: 11:39

Thank you for sharing that. I think that's going to help a lot of people. When you come out of a significantly traumatic event and you go I am never going to talk about this again your body is still talking to you about it. That's the sense that I get around the panic attack, and so you can't ignore that your body is continuing to have that conversation, even if you're not having it with anyone around you. So what was that conversation like for you inside of yourself, and what was the defining moment or the tipping point where you decided to get healing?

Jill Heiman: 12:16

Thank you for pulling that back together, because that is the intention of sharing that story. This was the anchoring point of where all the depression came from throughout my 20s 10 plus years of depression. Here's this moment, the panic attacks. Here's this moment. Anytime I'm not feeling safe. Now there were other experiences in my 20s that, like this is a safe space and I'm just going to blast it all open, right, so people can see the journey and you can hear I don't think people share the full scope of it and it's like life sometimes is just life and like this is what it was. But like at 19 had that occurrence, 23,. I was held at gunpoint, walking home by myself, holy shit. So then it was. Then my body again the safety. I crumble on the ground when I say like I've dealt and delve into the darkness. It's a safe place for me at this juncture. There are some other things in my 20s, other occurrences that I really got challenged on, and so I'm dealing with this depression. Panic attacks are coming in. I think I was 25 when I got on medication because I made a really big heart decision to support raising this newborn child while her mother was handcuffed to the bed. She was a fugitive, so I chose a relation. This is some stuff. This is some life stuff. All of this was showing up in my body and I wasn't able to meet it. So then I'm creating reoccurring patterns of not being safe.

Jill Heiman: 13:50

The finale was at 28. My wedding was called off three months before. Amen. I had a memorial. I loo for this man that called it off. I am very, forever grateful to him. But that was my rock bottom. I had moved in the basement, moved from Florida back to Kansas, moved in the basement with my parents for a week, realized I couldn't do this Thankfully had quite a bit of saving, saved up and then moved into my own place. I was not well when my honeymoon was supposed to be. I ended up going to Mexico with a friend and just really was heavily turning to alcohol and heavily turning to a place of back to my body, as like this object, which never felt good, but that was my place of power. That's how I knew I had power.

Jessica: 14:45

Can you explain that a little bit With that feeling of power.

Jill Heiman: 14:49

You walk into a room, you walk into a club, mind you, I'm 28. This is a long time ago. It was this sense of I can own the room by the sheer sense of my body, not the essence of me, not this embodiment of who I am, but just my sexuality will get me whatever I want. I was at a place of how do I even communicate? I couldn't communicate my emotions, let alone even say what emotion it was that I was even feeling in a moment From here. It was a beautiful relationship that I found myself in. I will call this this beautiful man and angel on earth of some sense, because he was able to see me after this unfolding. I was in a depression when, I think, we were together for two years. He just was able to just be my friend. That's really ultimately all. It was like deepest level of friendship. I could somewhat begin to feel safe in this relationship with a man. I felt supported From here. He would keep like he knew I was depressed, Like I was not who I should be, because I had a lot of unhealed stuff and my body was not okay.

Jill Heiman: 16:16

And so it was a Joe Rogan podcast with Christine Hasler and he's listening to Joe Rogan and he's like I really think that you should listen to this podcast. I don't know like he's trying anything. What about this book? What if you? You know, da, da, da, da, da. And I'm like, okay, I remember the day y'all I take my dog on a walk, it's a fall day in Kansas city and there's leaves, I can hear them crunching, and I'm listening to this podcast and for the first time in my life, I was like, yes, I was just nodding, yes, yes to everything that this woman was saying. What was being talked about? I have no idea, I can't remember, but it was something.

Melissa: 17:00

You just remembered that. You remember that, yes.

Jessica: 17:03

What did it awaken in you?

Jill Heiman: 17:05

listening to it, it was like someone gets me, for finally someone freaking gets me. And so she was offering a women's retreat in California. Literally gave no location you like, just fly in, you get bussed up to this old school, some church building I mean I can't even tell y'all, you're up in the mountains. No service on these beds wallpaper. I mean it was just funny. But I said yes to that. I'm like I don't know what this is. I don't know where I'm even going, but I'm gonna go. It was March 10th, 2017, is when I finally said yes, and that was the no looking back of like really finally becoming the author of my life.

Jessica: 17:52

Before we get into this new phase of life, which I'm excited to learn about. I love how, right off the top, you talked about your relationship with darkness, and you're not the first powerful healer that I've met who has expressed that. Life has brought them into the darkness over and over again. I spent many years trying to do healing and I think I was really afraid to go into the darkness because I thought that the darkness would. You talked about the law of attraction. I thought the darkness would just keep bringing more of that to me and that I had to get into positivity. I had to be in the positive mindset.

Jessica: 18:28

I think a lot that is sold as actually spiritual bypass and it was once I actually because of life circumstances, that I had no choice but to dive in that. That is where the healing happened and the transformation happened, and I do think that's such an important thing for people who are listening in. You are healing when you feel like you are having to just look at the hardest parts of yourself and find a way to alchemize, that transmute and move through. That is where you actually meet yourself. So can we just talk for a moment about that?

Jill Heiman: 19:02

Yeah, there's a lot out there. We are in a time of human consciousness rapidly rising and, in this, up leveling and so much tech. Like you can receive anything that you want in a matter of seconds. It takes the highest level of devotion, not dedication. Devotion to you, choosing what feels good for you. There's a lot of people calling themselves healers, teachers. I'm very careful with the word healer, that's not my job. Like I do my work, I heal myself and in this I fully trust that it is exuding an energy that is offering permission for the next woman to go meet herself and play with herself.

Jill Heiman: 19:51

In the dark. However, that looks For me the light. It just feels so much warmer. The sun is warmer because I've walked through that. I've been in the cold, I've been in my closet, I've raged in my pillow, I've fought with myself in front of a mirror, like I've let all of the pieces of me that are like you're fucking not worth it, you're fucking piece of shit, who are you? You think you're gonna do this, bitch, please. Those are the pieces of me that are raw, that I sit with and have really met face to face in the mirror. No one's gonna see that, cause it's me in devotion to, like, making sure I'm good and I'm safe and I'm okay, you know.

Melissa: 20:33

Yeah, thank you for sharing all of that, because it's what you're visible now. You know you're online, you're doing live videos. If you look on your LinkedIn profile, you've got a really wonderful resume. Your life looks great, you've had success and People watching you and I know you're very open about your story. But I really want to reflect back how much I appreciate your authenticity, sharing the journey, because that's what happens. We look at someone and we're like, wow, look at them and you're like, yeah, no, but I say I've been like calling myself a piece of shit in the mirror for a couple decades, but now I'm like out here, you know, but I love you, saying this is a devotion to me and this is me choosing what feels good with discernment.

Jessica: 21:18

Mm-hmm, and we don't have to stay in the darkness. I don't want to scare our audience that healing is just darkness. That's not what I mean. It's that we do have to grieve. Right, we're looking into trauma that we haven't resolved or haven't made peace with, so there's parts of it that can feel really hard and ugly and difficult, but also there's joy in it. There's also a lot of beauty in it, what you just said. There is a softness that you can have, and it's not a place you stay forever.

Jill Heiman: 21:48

I Just want that to be clear as well. The thing is, is it's a programming that we are assuming the darkness is quote-unquote bad, that we're assuming it's gonna be this? Yeah, horrifying experience. That's all part of the programming. I could meet parts of darkness every day and it just feels different now because I've gone there. And how would it feel if your darkness is actually a place of neutrality? Mm-hmm, I know Melissa and I have had the same teacher Tracy hard word you got to have the rupture to have the rise. How can I play in that rupture for, however long it takes, while expanding myself, to be in this most abundant frequency, for all my desires to attract to me, while I'm playing in the rupture, like Personally, that's the journey I'm in, right now.

Melissa: 22:34

Yeah, yeah, tracy came on the podcast. So, tracy, our listeners have heard her and it's whoo a profoundly impactful conversation. Truthfully, as you would expect with Tracy, we spoke to that Learning how to feel safe in your body, to be able to I don't think she used the language of rupture and rapture in that podcast per se but to be able to hold it in your body. And I know we talked about last time of how powerful it is when you can bring your whole self to every Circumstance, wherever you are. You know you recently. When did you leave corporate? How long has it been now? Almost a year.

Jill Heiman: 23:07

Happy almost your anniversary, Thank you. I may still play in the space. You know I love building brands, so one never knows well, and I like that.

Melissa: 23:16

You even say I may go back right, because it's not about this one Structure is bad or good, it's how do I feel when I'm showing up there? Who am I being when I show up there? Am I able to bring my whole self? So how have you been able to bring your whole self while still being in Traditional structures that don't necessarily support that, because I know that's a big part of how you support women. So how have you been able to do that?

Jill Heiman: 23:39

Thank you for asking that. Yeah, so this is what I call an embodied circle self. So every single piece of us has been met, has been loved, has been given compassion, and now you are the embodiment of you, like Authentically you, and so I have been working with this for five years and Actually I'm excited. It's almost a launch time for the world to see my signature method behind it all. I played with it in corporate space, so what better way to test a embodiment and really see how is this, how does this feel?

Jill Heiman: 24:18

So for three years, when I was in one of the fastest growing Brands and the wellness space, I was in sales when I was like, let's play with this and this corporate realm. Many times I was meeting myself like, oh you safe, are you good, are you good? And then it just got to a point where there was no other safety than me being myself. Like that was how I was feeling safe and what happened is I would be invited to do group Meditations or our CEO would be like, ah Jill, this is your thing. Like can you lead us? And XYZ, whatever it would be, and like big team sales meetings and so, without me needing to say a lot, just showing up as I am and Taking on this shift in my leadership and my show up. It's opening doors for Opportunities is what it does.

Jill Heiman: 25:06

So what I've witnessed is you are this embodiment of all pieces of you, which I call circle self. From here you then are able to attract out warp speed, and I've seen this time to time again. And so then, once we get into the embodiment place, I love playing in strategy. I can play with this all day long. But I don't suggest strategy until you're in the embodiment, because then your strategy is going to be in more of an alignment place. But once you're whole, you're in this whole self.

Jill Heiman: 25:33

It's Unapologetic. We as women say sorry way too many times for really silly things. If you're very conscious and aware, catch how many times you might just be like, oh, I'm sorry. It's being in that place of owning your know as much as you give away your yeses right. Once you've been able to meet all of the pieces of you, so they all get a have a voice, no one's feeling left out, no part of you, no part of your experience is feeling left out, then you really begin to be able to feel in your body. This is a no, this is a yes, and you get a state it from such a strength, or it's just like no well, I think it's important to speak to the iterative process that this is right.

Melissa: 26:13

Yeah like none of us are sitting here, like we're done. We've checked all the boxes, we've met all the places. We're on this journey our entire lives and it's such an iterative process of establishing safety in all these little moments. And so we talked about the darkness, but also the process of just these little baby steps. So I think it's important to point out because I wanted to feel achievable, I wanted to feel attainable for people that it's like I don't want to go to that spot. You know, I don't know what's one tiny little thing you can do today. That's right.

Jessica: 26:41

You know, I also want to bring it back to the mindset piece that you mentioned earlier, because I know that you work with mindset as a coach and I think people show up in your life at the right moments in this Conversation feels very kismet to me, and I can't tell you how many people I've been talking to lately who have said, well, I'm at this age, so it's never gonna happen to me.

Jessica: 27:01

Whatever you know it is or it didn't happen in one very specific way that I expected it to happen, so it's never gonna happen. But I've also had my heart broken in my life when certain dreams didn't come to fruition, so I can understand that. There's this wanting to protect yourself right from getting your hopes up or being pragmatic and practical About realistic things that happen as you age or whatever. I'm curious what is that balance to strike? What is that balance between getting swept up in fantasy and dreams, or even vision, and then learning how to work with the scope of reality? Where does pragmatism and practicality actually have its place? And how do we, when we're in these rigid thought patterns, start to open up to what really could happen, even if we've never seen it happen before?

Jill Heiman: 27:47

I might be the wrong one to talk about practicality with. I don't play in that I don't play. It's very deep, generational programming, the thing with practicality for me and my body. It recognizes it as settling. So if I am to look at circumstances or anything going on around me and being okay, if it's not feeling good, then that's me settling. I have a commitment with me that when I'm on my deathbed taking my last breath, that I will have zero regrets, that I will have said, yeah, did that, did that, did that, did that. That is the place that I live in. Now, that is not the place that everyone lives in, and so a powerful question is well, what if? What if? Some people will refuse to go there?

Jill Heiman: 28:38

And when a person is in that deep of a commitment, they're just committed. They're committed to keeping it how it is and they're committed to having their scope of their thought process on their lack. Whether they see it or not, it's a commitment to lack. I want more money, I want oh, this is just how this is. There's no way I don't have that on my resume. I can't. There's no way I can get this job that I really want because I've spent 20 years doing XYZ. That's what you believe, then that's what you believe, you're committed to that belief, and so it's going to take a person making a commitment to switch the old beliefs and their deep commitment to that. That then they can actually be coachable. But if you don't want it and you want to stay in the realm, that is just like falling suit to what is then I allow that person to be in that place because I've talked to lots of people. I hope you come back when you're in a place of being open to what could be.

Jill Heiman: 29:41

I work with a lot of women and this is stuff that a lot of people would be like. This is impossible, like industry shifts people think are impossible. I've done it a ton of times. I went from beverage to pet food, to managing women's only gyms and then into a wellness brand, and then one woman had come to me and her focus was data, numbers, supply and demand, and she really desired to tap into her creativity and be like a creative director or something for a PR firm.

Jill Heiman: 30:13

This is a 360 degree shift y'all, but she was open and she was willing to get into. We got to go into the darkness, if you will, of the thought pattern and the belief really gets the root. Where does it come from, so that we can begin excavating from there? Simultaneously, we're playing with your vision, so we're allowing this frequency of your vision to come in as you're clearing the way, so the vibration of your vision can land in your body, in this new space that you're creating in your body, so then you can hold this frequency Under 12 months. This woman literally sent me a picture and she's like new art director for this PR firm. I wish this, but it takes a devotion to not settling or getting outside of whatever the practicality game is that you might be up to.

Jessica: 31:05

I totally agree with you. The piece that I'd like to explore with you is about, I mean, you mentioned earlier that you are dancing in the unknown a lot right now and that there is an element of risk that is inherent or built into pursuing a dream when you don't have a guarantee in how it's actually going to turn out. And it does take a leap of faith, I think where the practicality comes from is wanting certainty. They want to know or have a clear idea of how things are going to go for them. What is it going to look like in five years from now? And when we pursue something with our heart, it just doesn't come with that certainty. But it also means it might not work out.

Jessica: 31:51

Can we make peace with it not working out? Can we make peace with life looking different than we thought it should, or assume that it should? So what is the space that we need to be in inside of ourselves? Because I'm at an age, for example, where children may not happen. It may not happen, it's still a dream. It's something that I really want in my life, but I do have a biological clock that's ticking and I don't have a partner right now and I don't know what would have to happen and how fast it would happen in order to make that a reality. So can I still hold a vision for that? And the optimism or the hope? Is it hope? I don't know what that is, or be open to that, but also grieve the possibility that it may not Like. How do you hold those two things at the same time?

Jill Heiman: 32:40

I can play with that exact one very well, and then that exact space sister. So I don't play in the grieving yet there's no need to grieve because nothing's happened. If we want to play in the possibility of, like, I desire a child, as do I. I made the decision at 35 not to freeze my eggs was a whole process that I went through and here I am now and the stage that I'm 38 I'll be 39 this summer and I'm playing and it again. I'm reopened it. Okay, how does this feel now? How do I want to go about this? And I'll stay on the having children, because I think this is something that a lot of independent women that have been single and I'm in partnership now but things are happening later quote unquote in our life and for me this is everyone's individual journey.

Jill Heiman: 33:32

When I say devotion, that's truly what I mean, because your connection to your vision is your own. Mine is very much a spiritual lead, guidance of trusting. So I have made that devotion to myself and to God, universe, whatever name you give it, and I've made that prayer many times. Started at the age of 35, when I could start to feel this whole like ooh, I'd be a good mom, I'd kick ass as a mom. Mom's not be okay. Do I desire this? Ooh, I could shift generations, like, how would I be a parent? All of these things you know. And so I offer a prayer when it is a big, big vision that is fully, fully unknown whether it's having kids for me, this now, this house that I'm living in, that's going to be a retreat, sanctuary, big, big vision.

Jill Heiman: 34:23

There comes a point in the vision where you've got to care about it enough to let it go. I have let this go. I hold it daily. I hold it if I'm to have a child, if I'm blessed enough to have a child, god, I trust that this will be in the best and highest good for me and my partner. Right, I wanted to become an author. This vision came into my field in 2019. 20, 22 became a reality. Three years, the prayer.

Jill Heiman: 34:54

I held the vision every single day, something I call bullet point journaling, with your I am and your plane and your vision language, and I'm holding this every day. I'm an author. I'm an author. However this looks, I play with the titles. I play with it. So when you're talking like a kid vision, I play with child's names. I play with the spirits that are coming to me, around me. But this is it's a devotional dance of a prayer with a vision is the best scope that I can share, because, sure, there's risk and the question that I would ask anytime. Anyone's like, yeah, but what if it doesn't come true? And then did it and it's like, but what if it does? Or but what if it doesn't? And that's your next level. You get the result and it's not exactly what you wanted and it's an invisible stair that goes in front of you and you just get a step on it.

Jill Heiman: 35:49

Cool, that's awesome. It didn't work out for you. What's next? Let's go. What if it's something even better?

Melissa: 35:56

I love that. I think there's such an idea of like certainty is an illusion anyway, nothing is right. I remember when I was leaving corporate and my husband was like, but that's so safe and secure. I was like how I've survived five massive layoffs? Like every company I've worked for has been acquired or sold or whatever. I'm like there's no security here.

Melissa: 36:18

All of it's an illusion and I think where we get tripped up is our specific idea of how it's supposed to happen. Right, like I have to take it to the kids is like two moms recently in my sphere that had children at 43, countless women at 41. I've had women who froze their eggs, didn't use them. Froze their eggs, did use them, decided to be a mom on their own, met a partner during the process of that that supported them, had kids on their own, never met a partner. I mean there are a million ways that this can happen. Right, if we're just speaking to this and that's life. Right, like we think this outcome, this vision, this very specific way and just you've been coaching me. I mean we all need coaching through this right, like releasing attachment to the very specificity of it and making room for the magic. You know, I talked to my coach the other day. She was like the only thing here that's wrong is your expectations.

Melissa: 37:11

Everything's going exactly as it's supposed to go, but except your expectations for what you thought it was supposed to be, and I'm like, yeah, so it's our expectations and the illusion of certainty. I think that is so tripped up, but I love the visual of what if it's exactly how it's supposed to be, and the next thing that happens is your invisible stare that you get to step on and it takes you to where you're actually supposed to be going, absolutely.

Jill Heiman: 37:38

Well, here's something that's coming in. I teach on this for our logical, loving brain to come in, and it's what I call the creation process, and it's two different teachings that I have melded together from like what I've seen over the years. So it's a practice by Mary Morrissey and then Robert Fritz, so I've combined them and it's super easy for our brain to grab onto. So this way, when you're in the creation of the vision, you can kind of like, oh cool, okay, I'm in this step. Our brain just kind of likes steps, you know. So it's our thoughts.

Jill Heiman: 38:10

We all know the law of cause and effects, right, so it kind of plays on that. But, like, our thoughts cause our feelings, our feelings cause our actions, our actions cause our results. We've all probably heard this. Right, look at our results, track it back to our thoughts. Well, the additional piece here is our results. There's like time delays that happen in here, and this is where I see so many people getting tripped in their visions and not moving forward or not seeing results fast enough, and then they just like kill the dream altogether. So what happens is we get our results.

Jill Heiman: 38:42

We now create a definition of that result. This is most often unconscious. We're creating a definition of what this result means to us, and then that is directly affecting our momentum forward into the next step.

Jessica: 38:55

Yes.

Jill Heiman: 38:56

Yup, and the two time delays happen in the thoughts and feelings phase. We get tripped on a hamster wheel of thoughts, feelings, thoughts, feelings, thoughts, feelings, analysis, paralysis, whatever you want to call it right Practical parameters. You're literally keeping yourself in this should oh my God, feeling based, and you're not even moving forward on actions. That's the first time delay, and the second one is there's going to be a time delay between when you take action and when you actually are seeing the result. Now, this is the place that I see most people. It's like the death dream trap. You don't see your results fast enough, so you jump off ship. Right, if I would have jumped off ship, I probably would not be an author right now. You know what I'm saying If I would have like, dumped that vision on the street. But visions come to your heart. For you, it's a unique frequency for you to birth, right. Like you, two ladies, no one else could birth this podcast, because it's your two frequencies coming together to create what is this amazing sauce of a place for people to find themselves.

Melissa: 40:00

Thank you. Well, I talk a lot about, like harvesting. You know, what do you think about planting anything? It's the obvious analogy, and I know we've all heard it the day you plant the seed is not the day you pick the fruit. Right, and I taught a lot about this and I have to tell myself this pretty much daily because I've been talking to Jessica and some other folks. I feel like I'm in a hurry, like I want it now, you know, especially when you have something that's so just like this exciting and it's exciting.

Melissa: 40:23

You're like I want it to be real now. It's very hard to be patient, but I always taught in beauty counter it was almost like a six to nine month lag of action and results. In that scenario and that was something that we saw over and over again I was like when you start a conversation or you start showing up, whatever you're doing now is probably gonna come to fruition later this year and at least six months. So even to set the expectation of, like you're planting the seed today, you can harvest it when it's time, in like a year from now. Right, but we need to be reminded of that, especially with people who are hungry for something, who have this drive for more, who love achieving. It's very hard to be patient, as we've talked a lot about.

Jill Heiman: 41:06

Well, yeah, and I love you brought this up because you get to track your ROI with vision creation, right, it takes me about three months. Typically is what I have found for, like certain things. My clip is about three months before then it will, so you can track yourself too, like track your creation process, because what a beautiful share. Like you saw over time tracking, it's gonna be six to nine months. Like how does that land in your body Like cool. I know this is probably gonna be a three to four month before I see results on this one.

Melissa: 41:37

It's spacious, it's just a beautiful. There's the breathing room. I mean I need to chill out. We need to chill out. We're craving the spaciousness in the process. Well, it's the social media tech.

Jill Heiman: 41:47

It's the world that we're in now, like we can get everything in one second flat, but like Changing our relationship to time Feed on earth, like go find yourself in a forest, yeah, come to the mountains.

Melissa: 41:59

Everyone's invited. I know we need to just go drown ourselves in nature and we think it's like. Our dreams are like in a prime now Ordering status of like. If I pick it now, then it'll be here by bedtime, which is lovely sometimes. The more connected to bring it back to a lot of this work that we do, that's very soul generated the more connected it is to like your true soul journey and your heart centered, whatever if it's like a body of work, for example the patients and nurturing it requires, it's the becoming. That is the point and there's no sent thing for that. And that's very uncomfortable because it's usually brand new when you start to do it and we don't have anything familiar to relate it to, except for other people that are maybe a little further along in the journey that we can see, but outside of that it's very unfamiliar.

Jill Heiman: 42:47

So it's not really a question. I like that you say that. Yeah well, you cannot create that in which you are not willing to become Period. That's factual for me, and one of the questions you asked earlier. It's like just find the community that feels good to you. Like find a community. So when you're in the quote unquote realms of the darkness, where you're snot nosing yourself in the closet like you have a sister, it does make it a process that isn't as non-neutral that way.

Jessica: 43:25

Yeah, and the last thing I just wanted to acknowledge was you said something that I thought was really beautiful around the brain and how to use the brain, because I think many of us live our lives making decisions from a mental place, but what I think you're communicating is that we live from the heart and then the brain actually is there to serve the heart. Like you can build a logical process, a structure around the desires of your heart in order to help bring it into the world, and then the brain has to kind of step back Right and stop trying to get so involved in the timelines and how fast it should happen and how exactly it should happen and how exactly it should look like. Trust your body, trust your heart, trust your desire. Use your brain to serve that, and you said it so well, that's exactly what I was saying.

Melissa: 44:17

This Jessica's superpower. It's something that's really to articulate concisely.

Jessica: 44:22

I think this was such a beautiful conversation. I think this is gonna be so helpful for so many people. You really have such a gift with words and articulating really big concepts in such a clear and powerful way, and I'm really grateful that you shared your expertise and your wisdom and life experience with us.

Jill Heiman: 44:43

You know, ladies, I haven't shared the whole, the pinpoints of the journey, so I'm hopeful that the light shining on my actual path right of like dang well, this is what I went up against. This is what I went up against, but it just like brings some normality to this whole journey that is life.

Jessica: 45:04

So how can people work with you?

Jill Heiman: 45:06

Oh goodness, yes, if anything that I'm saying is vibrating with your soul, please reach out. I love connecting. You can find me on the socials, at Awake Journey, and you can also come join our community at AwakeJourneycom backslash. Join community. That's how you can get a hold of me and I would love to invite anyone that's out there and maybe you hold retreats. You have a big vision that you want to host a retreat. I would love to support you in this vision, because my big vision that has landed me on top of a mountain that's nearly 20 acres outside of Asheville, north Carolina, in this beautiful sanctuary house with a saltwater pool and she has this amazing fire pit. This is the year for her to be opened to retreats. So if you're hosting one, you can also reach out to me and it would be my greatest honor to support you and this vision of holding and hosting humans to their highest evolution.

Melissa: 46:11

I'm sold. Well, thank you so much for being here, jill. You're always such a contribution and I do love your willingness to go there on the whole messy journey that it is to become who you are, and I'm just very grateful for your friendship, very grateful for your presence in my life, and I know, with added doubt, that this conversation is already such a gift, because we get to start talking about all the things that we think we have to shove down, and you gave us such permission to not do that. So, thank you.

Jill Heiman: 46:47

Yeah, thank you for this space. Thank you, Jill.