Douglas Scherer: The Space Where All Possibilities Can Be — The Power of Defying the Status Quo and Embracing Discomfort

Jessica: 0:00

If you enjoy this episode, we would love it if you would leave us a review, give us a follow or a like and share it with your friends. Thanks, rebels.

Melissa: 0:11

To even question what you've been told is true is incredibly courageous. It doesn't always feel like courage. What looks like courage to other people, for me it feels like survival. This is our personal medicine.

Douglas: 0:24

If I'm surrounded by thinkers, by lovers, by passion, by integrity, then I really do think that I know who I am.

Melissa: 0:30

There is a piece that is indescribable when you're being who you are and you're living your purpose Not going to come to the end of my life and be like I didn't live the life I was meant to live- Can I be so comfortable in the unknown and so comfortable in that uncertainty that every version of it is going to be okay? This is the Inner Rebel podcast.

Jessica: 0:58

Welcome, rebels. I am so excited to be sitting here with Melissa and Douglas Sherer. We're so happy to have you on the show, douglas. We met in December and I kind of love how the universe works. Something has just brought us back together again in the sort of synchronistic way, so I really feel like we're meant to be having this conversation today. I'm excited to dive into all the questions I have about your awesome book. You have over a decade of experience in leadership development a keynote speaker, workshop facilitator, coach and retreat leader. Your driving force is a deep-seated desire to help people thrive, both personally and professionally, fostering a culture of trust, transparency and collaboration and creating a safe space for exploration and growth, which I love. You also have a background in mindfulness and leadership, so you have this really unique blend of expertise. You have a very holistic approach to your work. Your new book, forge, was ranked a number one new release and number one bestseller on Amazoncom.

Douglas: 1:59

Thanks for that lovely introduction. I'll just Melissa, you put something in one of your LinkedIn things which is you're dedicated to taking up space. That has been stuck in my brain since I saw that because, as an introvert, my whole world is like, okay, I don't want to take up space. That whole thing is like that's my mantra now I'm dedicated to taking up space.

Melissa: 2:21

What does that look like for you? What's that? Because that looks different, obviously, for me and for you. What does that expansiveness look like to you?

Douglas: 2:29

Yeah, well, it looks like a couple things. My body's recovering from two major surgeries, one of them opening up my spine. This idea of taking up space as I'm going through physical therapy and learning how to walk again and all those kinds of things is really a very expansive opening, fear reducing mindset and feeling like, hey, I belong in this world, like this body belongs in this world, this mindset belongs in this world, and even if I feel shy about it, if I'm dedicated to taking up space, I could still be shy, I could still whatever that feels like. I mean, part of it is like learning to stand up straight and bring my shoulders back, which is like my whole body is like physically trying to pull me down. My lungs open up. The boundaries are beyond the body. The energy boundaries go wherever they go. I mean Reiki healers will work with you from a completely different continent. So all of that makes it very connected and very expansive and I just love that statement that you made.

Melissa: 3:34

And I love that you talked about like there's the physical body that's right here that takes up actual space, and then there's like the energetic body, or whatever you want to call the energy field that takes up space. And it's not about like taking up space isn't about being the loudest person in the room. I think there's a misconception of like I got to be out there and commanding and like maybe even annoying to people. It's not about the biggest personality in the room. You said it so perfectly. It's about like a belonging and like I'm worthy of my body, I'm worthy of my voice, I'm worthy of my experience of the world, I'm worthy of getting support, asking for help. My needs get to matter right. So it's really like a claiming of self, in a way, and I think that distinction is really important because it's not an expectation that everyone needs to get loud all of a sudden.

Douglas: 4:31

Right, and it could even be. I mean, as an intro. It's like an internal thing, rather than I'm going to be pushing myself in people's faces. It's more like I can be even bigger than people think I am, bigger than I think I am. You know, it can just be. I'm here, you know I'm in this world.

Melissa: 4:47

So it was beautiful. That line I have it like right here. I love that you brought that up.

Jessica: 4:53

We like to ask everyone who shows up here because you have all these amazing, wonderful accomplishments, but we're interested also in how you see yourself and how that may be different from who you thought you were supposed to be, what you may have thought society would have expected you to be. You talk about rewriting the playbook and I'm interested in how you feel you have personally rewritten your playbook in your own life.

Douglas: 5:22

Wow, it's hard to know where to start. I don't know if I can hold it down to one thing. I'm very passionate about bringing this transformative experience, inspirational experience, liberating experience to workers, to leaders and really to anybody. They don't have to be at work. Also, parents, I should say. I'm actually just starting research on a book for parents. There's so many kids that have emotional challenges and so the next thing is kind of bring this experience and this kind of writing to help parents help themselves. So my passion is about researching and helping through the research and the writing and the consulting and the workshops and the keynotes. But I think society wanted me to be an engineer and we'll just say that there were several things that weren't going to allow that to happen. I mean, I can't read a schematic, at least one as of 1975.

Jessica: 6:12

And I don't even know what that is.

Douglas: 6:14

But I was studying music. So I have a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Music and I started looking into both world music and kind of like Renaissance, medieval, Baroque kind of stuff and that oddly led me into getting a side gig of working in music libraries as a music librarian. So I never thought I was going to be into technology, but it was right about that time that technology was coming into libraries online card catalogs and things like that and so I wound up moving in that direction and I never thought I would be like a technology leader. In fact I kind of really disliked technology. I remember seeing the first Apple Computer and going like I'm never having that in my house. That has never entered my world.

Douglas: 6:53

My beginning is more about art and music and creativity, but I also think there's a lot of folks in that, a lot of folks that came from music that went into technology, Because for some reason the thought process is somehow the same. It seems kind of weird, but the early days I was kind of into this mindset of some other people which is like writing computer code there's like a poetry to it, it's a language in itself. So I never thought I'd see that and then that kind of led me into. In the 90s I had by a kind of boutique consulting firm and I think it's because of that creativity, that openness, I know how things get done in the tech world. I kept getting put more and more in front of executives.

Melissa: 7:29

And so.

Douglas: 7:29

I never thought I was going to be there. So when I was studying early music, I never thought that was going to lead me to sitting with executives and helping them open and transform. But that's where.

Jessica: 7:38

I am now In a way, as you talk, I'm like, oh, you're like this bridge. You're this bridge between creativity, imagination and then having this sort of technical process, helping people link who they are and what their purpose is and who they're really wanting to be in the world, but having to work with sort of the confines of the system that they're within, if that makes sense, Finding a way to find harmony within, that is that making any sense.

Douglas: 8:05

It's just interesting you put it that way, because a lot of the work I do and the talks I do try to do, that exact bridge is try to say here's why this is important. I can see it from both sides because, having been a technology a long time and knowing the teaching that I do at Columbia is a lot about this to my master students Teaching them technology in a way that leaders can use it to then create a better dialogue and understanding and alignment with what needs to get done. The bridge is really like what does it mean to somebody? How are they going to use it? Why are they going to use it? Oftentimes, from a personal level, it's like what does this mean to me With the folks I help? That's the transformation process. What does it really mean to you? What are you experiencing with this?

Jessica: 8:55

I'm curious in your own journey of rewriting your personal playbook, what have been some specific limiting beliefs or habitual beliefs that you have had to work on and overcome in order to be more of a leader yourself or more authentic in your life?

Douglas: 9:13

I would say one of the key things I'm battling is imposter syndrome. I know a lot of people are going through this now. The thing there is just never feeling like I know enough, you'll never know enough. You'll just never know enough.

Melissa: 9:25

You know what you know.

Douglas: 9:27

Not that you shouldn't continue to learn, but how much do you need to know to feel comfortable? That's my fascination with the intuition piece. They say that you write what you want to know. In some ways I was investigating what I want to know. Coming to terms with being able to speak to someone like you on a podcast, being able to respond to these kinds of questions without second guessing, without filtering everything before it comes out. That has always been a challenge for me and continues to be. But I think that's one of the things where I'm really changing the playbook. And what Melissa had said about taking up space, that whole mindset, is like a current transformation for me. I think that's where I'm more and more headed. To me, that's a statement of embodiment. The intuition thing is an embodiment thing too.

Douglas: 10:16

All these things are about finding your place in the world, where we're existing, in these bodies. I think that's the playbook. Change for me is to become more embodied, become more grounded and to be less concerned with worrying about everything. I say that the words have to be perfect or the thought can't be corrected.

Jessica: 10:35

I deeply responded to your book. This book is about the new wave of leadership. Because I come from a totally different world and different background than both of you do.

Jessica: 10:51

I responded because I think you're speaking to things that actually transcend the work environment. You're speaking to qualities that, as I was reading, I'm like this is just really good life advice for anyone. Also, here we are on this podcast. The title is Interreble and we're talking about what it takes to forge your own path in the world. Everything that you write about to me is applicable to waking up every day as a human being and setting out on your own course in terms of following your intuition, learning boxes, self-trust, in terms of compassion. I was saying to Melissa I sent her a little voice memo and I'm like I feel like leadership and being a rebel is sort of synonymous in some way, because to show up as a rebel in the world means that you are doing something that's never been done before and setting an example.

Douglas: 11:48

Right, I'm so glad you picked up on that and that you're bringing that up. The more I wrote the book, the more I saw what you did and it wasn't. My initial intent is that these are things that are applicable to just making decisions in real life. You don't have to be a leader. What you're leading is your own life. What you're bringing forward is your own purpose. As you come up to challenges in life, you enter the analogies of the forge. It's this high pressure. Maybe you don't know everything that's going on. In fact, we probably don't have the answers to most of the questions that are coming up in life and we have to find a way to work with them.

Jessica: 12:26

When I break down these principles that you talk through for forge leadership you have favor compassion only, unexpected recast ideas, go with intuition, employ action communications and drive community bonds. I really love the link that you make between compassion and innovation because it was a perspective shift for me and I'm wondering if you can speak more to that relationship in terms of how does a negative or unsafe external environment impact our ability to think creatively and take risks? Because it also made me think about our internal environment, our self-talk, our self-criticism and self-judgment, and how huge a role self-compassion has in showing up authentically in all these different realms in our lives. How can we also create a supportive internal environment that encourages self-expression and creativity?

Douglas: 13:18

We start with self-compassion, because that's core and you think, oh, leadership, I'm leading everyone else right. But you can also burn out. You can also give too much. You can worry so much about what's going to happen that you're now in paralysis and you can't really think, you can't move forward. The self-compassion really allows you to settle and perhaps listeners may want to even try just like feeling their feet on the floor, whether they're standing or sitting, or if they're laying down, they can feel their back on the floor and just feeling grounded for a moment, like really feel the connection between your whole foot and the floor. And then moving into Chi Gug a little bit, feeling and imagining like a golden light coming down out of your feet, like three feet, six feet, just all the way down, and that taking just like a deep breath, and that alone can be very grounding. Peace and ease is made in little moments, at a time, and that little moment, just feeling your feet on the floor, situates you instead of in the head, instead of just oh, what about this, what about that, what about this, what about that? All of a sudden, the whole body, the mind, the heart, the spirit, everything is now anchored, if we're able to do that even once an hour. I mean, how long did that take? I mean, I just see the clock, but I think that was a minute and a half right If you were to take three minutes an hour doing that, especially if you're working on the computer all day.

Douglas: 14:44

I mean, big data is now coming at you. There's messages flying and since the pandemic started there's been an increase between 2020 through the end of 2022. The number of double book meetings has increased by 46%, so you can't even focus on a meeting. I know I have like frequently three meetings at a time and chats coming in and emails flying around. When we take that breath, it's moving into the parasympathetic nervous system. You're moving out of the flight freeze and into the regulation of that and I think that we're moving as a leadership group and as a world. I think we're trying to move more into this regulated thing, because politics and war and famine and climate change I mean there's enough to worry about. We need to take that time for ourselves to make sure we can exist within that realm of chaos, and grounding yourself can help do that and that's adaptive self-compassion Just feeling your feet on the floor. You can now be centered in that to try to make the best decision you can, even given not enough information.

Melissa: 15:48

There's so much that you just shared that I think is really worth bringing to the surface One dropping from your busy mind down into your body, and I love that you shared a really simple way to do that.

Melissa: 16:01

It's truly a moment and it's a practice that you do on repeat and really what you're doing is you're regulating your nervous system in that moment, getting back into your body so that you can come from a place of choosing your response versus just reacting to the moment. And I think, even when we talk about as an individual and as an organization and as a leader, taking those moments helps you drop into your body. Trust the response that you're choosing, which, therefore, you're showing up in a more consistent manner with your team, which has them trust you. It starts with you, right? We can't just be like, oh, trust other people. It's like, well, where are you not trusting yourself? I'm curious if you're seeing a shift in the way leaders are leading, coming from a place of that self-compassion, that trust, that grounding in. Are you seeing that happen in the real world more often now than you're used to?

Douglas: 16:52

What I'm seeing is more of an attempt. This is a process. We're never gonna reach perfection, because the world is not perfect. I would say, though, it's tough for leaders in an environment, and this is what I try to work with is like bringing that grounding in this stuff environment. I see a shift in the amount of trainings and learning opportunities there are to do that, which means there's an interest in it.

Melissa: 17:15

And it seems like people are just getting burnt out, they're overwhelmed, they're overworked. We've seen a huge increase in people leaving. People want to have these career aspirations, but at what cost? I think people are really starting to ask some bigger questions, especially coming through COVID why, why am I not prioritizing my joy? Why am I grinding it out when I could be making a bigger difference? I see it everywhere where these deeper questions are being asked, and so I'm happy to see that you're seeing a shift and at least people are making an effort, because that's where it starts. That's all we can ever do, right. But I'm curious, jessica. I know you're about to say something too.

Jessica: 17:57

I keep wanting to bring this back to the personal, because it's sort of my way into this, and to relating to this, because I think these themes are so applicable.

Jessica: 18:06

So I'm excited to explore them in a personal way.

Jessica: 18:10

And so I guess, when I think about this sort of environment of compassion and self-trust, I think about it in terms of, I guess, self-safety.

Jessica: 18:20

If you're growing up in an environment that shuts down your creative ideas, that doesn't allow you to pursue your dreams, that tries to fit you into a box and tells you this is how you're supposed to show up in the world, right, it is so much harder to trust yourself, to allow yourself to follow through with your creativity. So I'm curious how we can cultivate a more compassionate and curious approach to our own thoughts and ideas, especially if that isn't something that has been nurtured in our lives. So if a leader wants to create an environment for the people around them that allows them to show up more creatively, you know like everybody is going to do better work in an environment where they feel nurtured and seen right. They have true support. But we have to give that to ourselves too. So how can we develop this growth mindset, this willingness to learn from failures as part of the creative process and be more curious and compassionate towards ourselves.

Douglas: 19:19

Yeah, I mean you said it. My response was gonna be the growth mindset, which is and you described it well is basically learning from your failures. I think the key piece to the learning from failures and feeling safe is the non-judgment component. So even in meditation you try to work with non-judgment. So I didn't get totally deep into it this time. Or I was restless this time or I fell asleep. This time I was meditating. I mean really leadership. You can make a case that it's another form of meditation, because as you incorporate meditation into your life, the actions you take are really representing all that inner stuff. The mindfulness meditation is about being aware of what's going on in this moment and allowing it and allowing right, and the allowing piece is non-judgmental right and it's a beginner's mindset. That's the growth mindset in a certain way. Those two things together, like the growth mindset, non-judgment, allowing failures to be and learning from them.

Douglas: 20:17

I'll tell you one story that really speaks to me is my daughter was a ski racer for a while when she was younger. So I learned to ski when I was 50, just because I was hanging around and I saw I better get on some skis and try this thing out, and I was headed towards the lift and it was a very family mountain we used to go to and there was a little kid and he was maybe five and the fathers teach him how to put his boots in the bindings and they're gliding off to the lift and the kid asks his dad, what if I fall? And his dad just looks at him and goes like falling is learning, and then boop off, they went. And I just think, wow, man, that should be the motto of today. Yeah, keep falling, just learn. You fell down, you get up, you figure it out. We go down the hill and we go down the hill together as you learn.

Jessica: 21:04

I just think that what you're speaking to is what the creative process is about, like mistakes, which I don't believe in, but this idea that mistakes are part of the creative process, that in order to be innovative and creative, you have to try things that you've never tried before, and some things are going to work out and some things may not. But the things that don't work out it's not a failing. It's like oh, that didn't work. What new approach do I develop? That's information that actually helps me get where I want to be.

Melissa: 21:33

It's a perfect parlay, because I was feeling into the whole meaning of failure and the way in which it's taught to us, and even prior to us going live on the podcast, we were talking about the grading system and it's you know, you get an A, you get a B, you get a D. It's very. This is right, this is wrong, you know. I think this is where the self-judgment comes in. It's like there's this not enoughness and there's this assumption that it's a black or a white thing, Like it's right or wrong, it's A or B, it's very fixed, and there's this whole other world that's not this or this, but that's where we can get so much self-judgment is oh, it's supposed to be this way.

Melissa: 22:11

I should have done this. This is the measurement, and if I'm not at this measurement, then it means I failed, which means whatever our brain goes into the story about right. So even just that idea of reteaching failure and a whole different language to your point of this is learning. This is information. This doesn't mean what we have historically made. It mean to take the weight off of it, jessica.

Douglas: 22:37

it's what you were talking about, I think, before we started this taking the weight off of the learning, off of the moving forward.

Jessica: 22:43

You talk a lot about rewriting the playbook, the personal playbook, which I think ties into this, because I think so much of being able to think outside the box and come up with new perspectives is about learning to be in the gray right, to get out of the black and white and be more flexible in your thinking and in your approach to life. So, in terms of developing this flexible approach, you also acknowledge that there's all these habitual responses that we have, right? So how do we change our habits of mind? I think that's how you phrase it. How do we change our habits of mind?

Jessica: 23:19

Because most of us, I think, go through life on autopilot and we make decision after decision from this habitual place, without ever challenging our ideas and our perspectives. And in order to be an innovator, a leader, a rebel, you do need to be able to witness the way that we are repeating these patterns and find a way to kind of I don't know what's the word for that like breaking the cycle. Break the cycle, yeah. So how would you invite people to challenge their habitual responses? What do we actually do in order to let go of those preconceived notions, in order to get into non-judgment and open ourselves up to new possibilities? Right?

Douglas: 24:00

Yeah, and in the book I call that the success paradox. So we do something once and it works, and then we get the dopamine hit and it locks it into our brain and then we do it again, and so we've created our playbook. We never want to leave that playbook because the moment you do that it's a challenge, it's fear, it's something new.

Jessica: 24:17

Isn't that interesting, though, if it's like the playbook might not be working for us, but we're still getting this like hit inside of us that this feels good. Isn't that strange?

Douglas: 24:28

Yeah, and in fact what starts happening is you start getting the hit ahead of time because you start going okay, I'm going to do that thing. And then your body starts feeling great, oh, I have the solution. Okay, now I'm good, I kind of don't have to think anymore, or I don't have to bring myself to the situation. I'm just going to repeat what I did before. It's like kicking in even before we make the decision. So we get more and more locked into that. The more it happens, the more repeating, repeating, repeating. So your question was about how do you get out of that? How do we get out of being like a victim of our own successes? A lot of the work is the mindfulness piece, because however you kind of work that whether it's through meditation or embodiment there's a lot of different ways to get at that. But it's really about coming to the moment and facing what's really happening in front of you. You have to practice seeing things in new ways. So even if you can't think of something new, the first part is really just to see it for what it is.

Douglas: 25:26

I got into this MBSR with all kinds of ways of doing this, but it's kind of a formalized mindfulness yoga. Eight week experience and I studied how to be a facilitator of that, and so much of that is working towards meditation and yoga and embodiment. Body scans you guys are probably familiar with, very slowly, what's going on in this part of the body, what's going on in that part. So that's a 45 minute experience in itself. They want you in MBSR, we'd like you to do at least 45 minutes a day as your training. But I'm a big fan of if all you have is three minutes, do it because it grounds you and it lets you be open and aware. But it's really about practicing that.

Douglas: 26:07

Practicing being in the moment and a mindset of, if there's fear, one thing you can say is, instead of going, oh, I'm afraid, I'm afraid is like okay, I'm closing down Right, to be an observer is to say fear is here, there's fear present that separates it from you. There's fear here. Oh, I can observe it now because it's not me going. Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, it's now me going. Oh, I see the fear.

Jessica: 26:34

I see the confusion. You're not identifying with the fear, like making yourself one with the fear. It's just witnessing that it's there and creating separation.

Douglas: 26:43

Daniel Siegel, you guys may know, famous psychologist. He has a phrase name it to tame it. Yeah, yeah. So there's fear here. I've just named that thing.

Douglas: 26:54

Okay, now I may be experiencing that fear, but I'm not clamping down on it, I'm not trying to act on it, I'm just going. It's there. Eventually you have to act, because you were alive, you know. But the act that you're in the process of while you're doing that kind of meditation is just the awareness piece. You're going to have the same kind of things with thoughts floating through your mind. If you're going, I don't want to think, I don't want to hear that, I don't want to hear that, I want to just focus on this. You're in a whole second degree of problem solving, which is how do I get these thoughts out of my brain, instead of going.

Douglas: 27:25

Okay, there's thoughts. Okay, I see that thought, I acknowledge it, I let it go. I name it to tame it. I see that thought go by, I let it go. Another way to go like hey, man, I recognize there's thoughts, I'm just going to watch them go by and I'm going to work towards not latching onto one of them. There's a kind of meditation called mountain meditation, where you're the mountain and the seasons are flowing across you, but you're steady, you're the mountain and sure, all these storms are happening, these clouds are floating by, you know animals are walking on you, but, as the mountain, all these things can be happening and you can still be you. You can still be your essence, you can still be your mountain grounded. And the mountain does not sit on top of the earth. The mountain extends deep into the earth and, as a part of it, is completely rounded.

Melissa: 28:10

In full transparency to our listeners. I am a sick child at home for the 7000th time this school year, and so it feels like it's been once a week for the last month, and so I am going to hop off and go put on my other hat and go take care of him. That's the whole of this right, so I'm going to stick around. So thank you, thank you, douglas, for being here, thank you, thank you, jessica, and I truly love this conversation and this is where I need to be in order to take care of myself and my life. So, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for being here and I look forward to hearing the rest, all right.

Jessica: 28:48

Okay, bye.

Douglas: 28:49

Bye.

Jessica: 28:51

Okay. So I love how you make the connection between leadership and this need to own the unexpected and embrace the unknown. I think the nature of life is the unknown and we have been taught to fear the unknown and to fear the unexpected and put all of these control mechanisms in our lives so that we don't actually have to face the fact that we are all out of control and that everything is unknowable. But I love what you're teaching around.

Jessica: 29:20

Leadership is. There is this component of embracing that journey and embracing the mess, embracing uncertainty, and what you're speaking to in terms of being the mountain and getting grounded and getting present allows you, in the present moment, to deal with whatever is coming up at any time from a place of centeredness and groundedness and consciousness versus reaction. Like we were talking earlier, we are meeting life moment by moment by moment and know that we have the capacity to deal with the unknown because really we're only dealing with it in the present and in this sort of like micro moment of what is in the here and now. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does.

Jessica: 30:01

But you talked about. Maybe there's the difference between, like trust and intuition. But I love how you discuss intuition in the book, that it's not just this random choice, that it's actually influenced by your expertise and your values. So I'd love for you to help us understand that a little bit more, because I think that might help people reframe their relationship to their intuition in these moments of needing to meet uncertainty, to trust that they have these inner resources to handle it if they understand exactly what intuition is.

Douglas: 30:30

So I have this tool in the book, called the Forged Leader Intuitinator. It's a journey through your internal values and taking everything you know, your expertise, your skill sets, your experience, your knowledge of what's happening right now, then applying your values and determining what action you want to take. Can I give an example? Yeah, when Neil Armstrong, first guy on the moon, when they were landing the lunar excursion module, with a minute of fuel to spare, he takes manual control of the limb and he lands it manually. So why? Because the computer is the best computer they had for 1969, you know. But the computer had targeted them to land in a crater of rocks. And so, with a minute of fuel to spare, he takes a look at it it's not going to happen. Okay, I can take it over. And this is. It's happening in a split second.

Douglas: 31:20

He takes control of the limb and then he's coming up, and the most science exploratory area would be to land in front of the crater. But in a split second he makes a decision. He goes you know what? I'm going to have to give up the ultimate science experience because I got to keep me and Buzz Aldrin alive, right and so he winds up going past the crater, landing on the other side, and still they come back with amazing stuff. All of that, that value decision safety over science that's the value decision. Right, he's observing what's happening, he knows his skill set I mean, the guy was an amazing pilot and then the value piece Okay, do I choose science over life, over safety? I'm going to grab the stick and I'm going to land it over on the other side. Then he chooses that action, then he takes the action.

Douglas: 32:02

So that's what I'm talking about with intuition. It's not like coming from nowhere. There is a certain thing to say okay, the universe is going to help, but if we want to be a little more tangible about it, we can bring our skill sets, our observations, our values, choosing action and then taking action. And for Neil Armstrong, that was a second, split second decision with a minute of fuel left to spare.

Jessica: 32:21

I think this is so important because I think for many people, when we hear, oh, I just followed my intuition, it's this sort of ethereal place that we don't understand inside of us. But to understand that intuition is a combination of your life experience, your skill set, your values, all happening in this sort of like instantaneous moment. That's really worth trusting. It's not coming from nowhere.

Douglas: 32:46

Intelligent risk is saying, okay, I don't have all the information, but again, using the Intuinator, using that model, takes into account all the things that I can use to make that decision my values and my observation of what's going on, my knowledge. In addition, I would add, in humility. I think the book is like it's couched in its leadership thing, but it's really about also you leading your life and transforming. Vulnerability is asking for help and knowing that that's okay, and in some organizations and in some environments, if you ask for help, it seems like okay, now you're no longer the expert you have to be vulnerable enough to ask for help. Therefore, you're opening your mindset to new perspectives. Is someone telling you you know what bad idea or a great idea or whatever? Here's additional information to help make that decision. It's like saying, okay, ego, I'm going to put you aside, pride, I'm going to put you aside. I'm going to go ask someone what they think.

Jessica: 33:42

You have a quote that you have in the book. Is it Ram Dass?

Douglas: 33:46

Ram Dass yeah.

Jessica: 33:47

Perfected beings rest in emptiness. Out of this restful place comes the optimum response to any life situation. I loved this quote so much.

Jessica: 33:57

I speak a lot in my human design work about the process of creativity and creativity through the lens of human design. It's like a pulse, like it goes on and off and there's periods of creativity and then there's periods where we're sort of sitting in the emptiness and the nothingness and a lot of people get very scared of that state of being. They think they need to fix it. What's wrong with me? They kind of fall into melancholy and I often talk about how important that is to the creative process, that it's actually in the nothingness your system is recharging. But also in that nothingness is where creativity can happen. It's like that's where all the potential exists.

Jessica: 34:35

Our minds don't understand it, so our minds freak out and go what's wrong? How do I fix this? How do I find a solution for this? We were to just rest in the emptiness. Eventually a solution comes. Eventually a creative idea will show up. So I loved that quote. I also just think it goes back to what you were talking about, that state of being, the mountain. You can be in that state of stillness and embodied in yourself, centered in yourself, that you will have the most authentic response to any situation that may arise, and to not fear sitting in that space. I'm just interested how you have incorporated this philosophy in how you approach your life.

Douglas: 35:16

Well, you know, first of all, boy, you just are so beautifully articulate. I mean, you said that so wonderfully. I wouldn't even attempt to even try to improve on that. That was beautiful. I know what.

Jessica: 35:26

I said I can guess myself too. I love that. You said that I don't know if any of that was English.

Douglas: 35:33

That was beautiful. You know, one of the new phrases I'm learning is I think it's from Jack Kornfeld, who's in Northern California at the Spirit Center it's don't worry, everything is out of your control. So it's another way of saying freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose, and that's kind of that emptiness is like. In fact, we don't even have to necessarily do anything. We're constantly moving towards doing, doing, doing. And this is both my challenge and also kind of what's helping me is trying to find and working towards that space of not doing. And there seems to be. I mean, it's a little bit of a paradox, because you want to have goals and intentions and things to move forward, but at the same time you want to do that without stress. So it's a little bit of like passive activeness.

Douglas: 36:23

I've forgotten the exact question, but I'll just say that in finding that center and in working with folks and I've just been so lucky to find some amazing teachers, healers, philosophers to work with that have been working in tandem with me and advising me on how to move through this empty space, how to create that empty space and move through it, but I'll say, the most difficult space, and this is why you need people who support you is to be in that paradox, to stay in that space.

Douglas: 36:57

It's very uncomfortable most of the time for people to be in that open, empty space. That's why there's so many people helping others to get it done. I think that's where I've been working and where I've been making the most change, even if it's a little, you know, cornflake of a change you know it's like where that crack is opening is to be able to sit in that empty space a little bit longer and allow it to let it be. I think that's what Ram Dass was talking about and that's why I included. It is allowing that space to be feeling supported, to be in that space like it's okay to not know Perfection will arise out of that.

Jessica: 37:35

It's okay to not know.

Douglas: 37:36

Yeah.

Jessica: 37:36

Yeah, my takeaway. There's so many takeaways from today, but I really am struck by how to be a leader or, in our case, when we talk about being a rebel or just being an authentic being in the world, how it is synonymous with uncertainty, with fear, sitting in the unknown, having to constantly shift perspectives and be flexibly minded in your approach to life, to be brave enough to be different, to listen to your own intuition, even if it doesn't make sense to other people. Exactly Okay. So trust yourself enough to take up space and show up, even in that fear, even in that discomfort. That's, I think. What I'm saying is that it's synonymous with discomfort. It's synonymous the right word. Sometimes I use words wrong. Okay, it's okay.

Douglas: 38:35

Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying there's discomfort in there. You're speaking to the process of life in a certain way. We have discomfort, we can get sick, we can be confused, we can be worried. That's all discomfort. There's so many ways of working with that, but a lot of it to me is allowing it to let it be okay. Going back to that phrase there is discomfort here there's discomfort. I can allow that discomfort to be and with different kinds of techniques, different kinds of body scans and stuff, actually you can realize that that discomfort. There's ways of allowing it to not take over your entire mindset, process, body set, experience, and say part of that is to say, okay, I'm gonna say what does my knee feel like right now? What does my arm feel like? Okay, the discomfort is still there, but you forgot about it for a second, helping you to be in the world with it.

Jessica: 39:29

I think discomfort is a signal that you are doing something you've never done before, or you're stretching yourself, or you're going down a path that maybe doesn't have a map or a guidebook. All of those things are good things. It's like if our brain doesn't recognize where we're going, it freaks out and it's gonna make us uncomfortable. But to actually forge a new path in the world, it's just gonna feel weird because it's gonna be new. And so to get comfortable with that discomfort and to recognize it as and fear as well as a sign of I'm actually moving in the right direction.

Douglas: 40:04

Yeah, they're all teachers, right.

Douglas: 40:05

I mean, fear is a teacher discomfort is a teacher, Sometimes it's hard to find the lessons when you're uncomfortable and when you're fearful. But finding that open space is, if it's about decision making, finding that open space is that creative space, staying there and the more you can stay there. So I mean like if there's a train coming after you have to figure out how to get out of its way, you're not gonna sit around, yeah, so I don't want to tell people to like take some kind of crazy risk just because I said you don't do it.

Douglas: 40:35

Yeah, that's not what we mean.

Jessica: 40:36

Different kind of discomfort. So discomfort of showing up in a space that you're feeling called to show up in but have imposter syndrome, you know. Or have discomfort around moving in a direction even though you know it's authentic for you, but it feels new and scary because no one's ever done it before.

Douglas: 40:52

Well, yeah, exactly, and you've said it well. Can I just go back to the Neil Armstrong thing for a second? Is in that moment when he did that? If you listen to the recordings they're all on the nasagov site. He sounds so calm it's like, oh, kind of, I'm doing this, roger, okay, I'm doing that, roger. I mean, they're, you know, deeply trained to do that.

Douglas: 41:12

His heart rate doubled. So internally he's feeling that, but his actions are expressed in a certain way because he's highly trained. So that's where, like, you bring your skills to that space. He had that open space, he made that decision in that open space, but he was able to open it and close it very quickly because of the situation, the emergency, his skillset, his values. I mean he was in touch with all those things. And the more you work with all those and he willing to change them, to change the playbook or to say that value is not working for him anymore, that's a bias. Maybe I need to change, the open to changing, transforming. Then you're really entering that space where, like, all possibilities can be.

Jessica: 41:54

Yes, oh, I love that. I'm going to end on that, because that's perfect. The space where all possibilities can be, that is what I think that space of emptiness is. So thank you, thank you so much for sharing so much today and your vulnerability. I really appreciate all of your insight and expertise and wisdom that you were willing to be so generous with.

Douglas: 42:19

Thank you and me to you. I appreciate your thought process, your openness, the way you word things, I mean your intentions, just all so beautiful. I mean it's just a pleasure to have had this time with you.

Jessica: 42:30

Oh, I so appreciate that. Thank you and I look forward to the next book. But Forge you can find Forge on Amazoncom. It's Forge Practices of Great Leaders and Volatile Times.

Douglas: 42:42

The Audiblecom book is coming out next week, the Audible version of it, so you won't listen too much.

Jessica: 42:48

Yes, so listen to it in your car. I just have to say that as I read it, I was like, yes, these are practices that every leader, every human being can incorporate into their lives to find more expansiveness and authenticity and purpose, and I really appreciate what you do. So thank you so much.

Douglas: 43:07

Thanks, Jessica.