Fabienne Jacquet: Idea Orgies, Feminine Wisdom, and the Future of Innovation

Melissa: 0:02

To even question what you've been told is true is incredibly courageous.

Fabienne: 0:07

It doesn't always feel like courage. What looks like courage to other people, for me it feels like survival. This is our personal medicine.

Melissa: 0:15

If I'm surrounded by thinkers, by lovers, by passion, by integrity, then I really do think that I know who I am. There is a piece that is indescribable when you're being who you are and you're living your purpose. I'm going to come to the end of my life and be like I didn't live the life I was meant to live.

Jessica: 0:31

Can I be so comfortable in the unknown and so comfortable in that uncertainty that every version of it is going to be okay?

Melissa: 0:39

This is the Inner Rebel podcast.

Jessica: 0:51

Welcome Rebels. We have Fabienne Jacquet, who is an accomplished scientist, innovator and author and self-described natural-born rebel. She holds a PhD in organic chemistry and is the founder of Innoviv, an innovation consultancy with a unique mission to help individuals and organizations recognize and value the transformative power of feminine energy and innovation. Her book Venus Genius the Feminine Prescription for Innovation Fabienne shares her insights and expertise to help us innovate for growth and celebrates the duality of the feminine and masculine in all human beings. She dares us to activate both energies to create innovation that brings true value to our world. Fabienne is also creating a video course called Smart Rebel how perfect that is, aimed at helping young people identify traits associated with innovation and become strong change makers and leaders. So we are so excited to have you here, fabienne. Thank you for joining us, thank you for inviting me and hi.

Melissa: 1:52

Melissa, hi, yes, I know I'm so excited, and the more I dug into who you are, the more I was. Yes, I love conversations that talk about bringing in the feminine, so I'm really excited to learn from you and learn more about who you are not just about the work you've done, obviously, but who you are as a person. So we're really grateful for you being here and bringing your innate rebel spirit.

Jessica: 2:14

We are going to dive in to talk about your book and your work. We're very excited. We have a lot of questions for you, but we also want to know a little bit about you as a human being, uh-oh.

Melissa: 2:26

We don't spend any time on the surface here, we just jump in the deep end right off the get go.

Jessica: 2:32

In many places as I was researching you. I love that you describe yourself as a rebel over and over, so we normally start our podcast with each guest asking a question that you can interpret or answer any way that you like. The question is who are you, and how is that different from who you thought or were told or were expected to be?

Fabienne: 2:55

Wow, two parts. First of all, thank you so much for having me here. I'm really, really excited about the opportunity. When our common friend connected us, I was like, yes, inner rebel, and I always love to share my passion. I have no kids, so I love also to live a little bit of legacy to the young generation. You know who am I? I think I'm when I say I'm a rebel is that I never settled for static quo. I was a kid, I was very, very young and already I was challenging the way things were. As you can imagine, I already had this scientific mind and I was asking why and why, and why and why and why? And we didn't have internet at that time to answer all the questions.

Melissa: 3:37

Just the encyclopedia Britannica on the shelf.

Fabienne: 3:42

I remember my PhD going into the library and all these huge chemical abstracts and going through all the pages, and so it was a little bit tough. The only thing good about going to the library is that I could meet cute boys. It's such a good tab, good tab, the old-fashioned library. But yeah, I believe that we can always make things better. And the second part that is intriguing to me because I never planned anything in my life saying I will be this or this or that.

Fabienne: 4:14

I had dreams, like everybody, but I think I let events guide me and I had these intuitions, like I was young, like five, six years old, something like that and my parents from the second world war were fascinated by the Americans, of course, americans who liberated France and so on, and I heard all that on my childhood and one day I said I will go to America when I will be a grown up. Everybody loved I went to the plane. We never traveled outside France. I said, yeah, sure, I knew it. I knew that I would do it. And the more people say you know it's just a dream, I say, haha, you will see, I will show you. So I react nicely to provocation.

Fabienne: 4:55

You cannot do something that I will, my kind of woman. I broke a lot of bones in my body because my younger brother, you are not able to do that. I say, oh, I will show you. And of course I fell and broke, that's okay. So this is what I call the rebellion. Yes, so I had the intuitions and then I followed the path.

Fabienne: 5:15

I didn't plan to be a scientist. It happened that at that time, when you were good at school, you were automatically into the science and math. Although I loved Latin, I love the languages and I always said I want to be a translator or an architect. Why did I become a chemist? Because I met a professor in chemistry who was so passionate about what she was doing. She gave me that virus of chemistry and then became a chemist. And then I said okay, I want to enter the work life. Somebody approached me and said you're good at analyzing things, why don't you do research? I said I will do research. So you see, I prepare myself for all the opportunities that came into my life and I made those opportunities mine, if in the best sense.

Melissa: 5:59

I actually have to jump in because I'm wondering if you read the book Lessons in Chemistry and you probably get asked this no, you're like a real world, elizabeth Zott oh my gosh, lessons in Chemistry. It's a very it's like a top selling book. Oh my gosh, it's by Bonnie Garmes, j-a-r-m-u-s. Thank you. And it's literally about a woman in chemistry who defies these masculine roles and breaks out of these traditional gender profiles in the industry you're in. You'll probably appreciate it.

Jessica: 6:30

I'm curious to hear about you. Know you were this little kid with this rebel spirit. Do you think that that came naturally? Were you just born that way, or did you have examples at that time in your life of people who were challenging the status quo?

Fabienne: 6:46

I think it was a combination of both. I think I was born like that because I have a younger brother and we had the same education, but I was always very bold, like he was quiet and he was very nice. He always behaved. I was always the one running all around the place. I remember my dad saying I was in between two brothers and he said I have one daughter and two sons. I don't know what the daughter is, she is like climbing the trees and going to the other side of the world having this big motorcycle. So I think it was in my nature. I was really born like that and also people were irreverent.

Fabienne: 7:22

I remember in the movies I loved when you had somebody transgressing a little bit. And then I was lucky enough that my parents were fantastic, because it's a long time ago and the education at that time was more gendered. It's still gendered, but it was very gendered and my parents were not like that. My parents were whatever you want to do. I never liked baby dolls. I just wanted to do construction and I wanted to play with the little cars and the trucks and I wanted to climb trees and my parents said you know, if it's what she wants to do. I love teddy bears. I had my teddy bears. Of course, I had to cuddle with something and then, when my younger brother says, oh, I want a baby doll, like Fabian, he had a baby doll.

Fabienne: 8:03

Okay, he didn't really play with it, but I think I benefited from this very smart and loving education. We didn't have money at home, but we had values, joy and I had freedom. I said it in my book in the dedication I really thank my parents for having allowed me to be who I was, even if they always didn't approve, and this is, I think, the gift I had. So you combine this permission with boundaries, which is very good. So I had permission to be who I was, with boundaries plus my innate personality, and this is how I was born and raised and I just evolved in the world and it worked for me and I was happy. I was a happy camper. Okay, we will talk about that. Some people try to kill that because it bothers people when you are different, doesn't?

Jessica: 8:55

it. I do want to talk about that. I do want to talk about that. How have you been able to stay true to yourself in those moments where someone has tried to squash it?

Fabienne: 9:07

Okay, I think it's not glorious or good, but I read very well a provocation. I wanted to have a motorcycle. Of course I was a scientist, I was only with guys and I loved the idea of having a motorcycle. So in France at that time you had three types of licenses A1, 2 and 3. The first one was for motorcycle up to 125cc, then 250cc and then above 500cc. So I arrived there and the guy said, okay, so I guess this is for the A1,. I said no, a3. He looked at me and said yeah, a3. And so I started to take lessons. The trainer he was fantastic. I was the only girl and he really was very nice, sort of protective, because the guys were not really nice with me.

Fabienne: 9:54

And in the test you have a slow driving and you have also the speed one, and for the speed we were training and what we were doing with the stopwatch, we were taking the time for the person and they take your own time. So I monitor the time of a guy who did the circuit and he gives me the stopwatch for him to monitor my time. So ready to go. He looks at me and says is there a special time for girls? Oh my God. I look at him and I say, just look at those stopwatch. And I almost killed myself.

Fabienne: 10:29

I gave it all I had in my guess and the trainer just arrived. He looked at the stopwatch and he said oh my God, what a time. How did you do that? I said I skimmed. The guy was leaving it, but this is how I know what. I just want to be who I am and show you what I can do. Why are you always don't train me because I'm a girl? It's not fair. So I think this question of fairness has always been in queen with me. You have to be fair and let me do what I can do best, because we all have our unique gift to bring to this world. We all have that. Let me express myself. I don't hurt anybody. I just want to bring something.

Melissa: 11:11

Oh, I love it so much. It's the same spirit you expressed earlier of the oh, tell me, I can't watch me do it right, but I love when you speak to your childhood and the way in which your parents nurtured your unique spirit. It was and you speak to this in the book about having safety, feeling safe to be yourself, feeling safe to break out of the status quo, and that's something that I personally found as a huge theme in my life the last few years, as I've been doing a lot of inner work is giving people a place to feel safe to be themselves in these intimate environments, because the world doesn't support it as a whole. So I'm curious you obviously had that growing up, but I would say it's still as it's hard, but it's easier when you've been taught that. So what do you say to people who maybe didn't have that safety to be themselves and to be so bold in their self-expression like you have? How do they bring that forward?

Fabienne: 12:05

It's tough to tell them because they just want to be themselves. In the chapter about collaboration, I talk about how innovators are, by definition, rebels because we challenge the status quo. An innovator is that doesn't say okay, that's good, no, how can I make that better? So we are rebels by definition and rebels thrive, but they have to be able to feel safe because they will not express themselves, and especially when you're introverted. So I'm trying to create environments around people that help them express themselves in different ways. So any environment trying to create something, lower the pressure, lower the noise, because there's so much noise around us and say listen to your body. And we don't listen to our bodies enough. Yeah, and they tell us we're so smart with our bodies, but we don't listen to them.

Fabienne: 12:59

I tell a lot of people just quiet noise around, and especially to the young girls, the teenagers don't look at Instagram and TikTok all the time. It's not reality, it doesn't give you a fair representation of what the world is and what you should be, because you are your unique self. You are a treasure on this earth and you have to bring it, but not by mimicking. It's really by discovering who you are, and this takes some peace, and I know that teenage years are very turbulent years I went through that or so but it's also the time that you are building your future self. It's huge. This is precious time. Don't waste it to an algorithm. And it's not from me, this quote, actually, but I love it because, yeah, don't waste your youth to an algorithm. Just make sure that you think more by yourself, you concentrate on you and surround yourself with people who want to play with you, respect you and whom you love. And no, it's not easy.

Fabienne: 14:00

How many times was I confronted to people I didn't want to be with and I don't want to work with, because I did not respect them and they didn't allow me to be myself? Somebody told me oh, you smile too much. You laugh too much, doesn't look upright, doesn't look serious. It was terrible. And this was when my husband was going through cancer and I had lost my mom in France, and so on, and I was still, you know, holding it at work and I was told that I was laughing too much. It was terrible. So ignore that. They don't know what they're talking about. You are who you are. There is a good reason for that. Start the noise around, focus on yourself and see what you bring to people. And for me, I bring joy, I bring lightness to people. This is who I am. That's fine.

Jessica: 14:44

This is a gift. The lesson I'm taking is Pay attention to who you surround yourself with, pay attention to your environment and pay attention to what you're consuming, and do those things make you feel safe and uplifted and seen and give you permission to show up fully as yourselves. And if they don't, then you start to question that.

Fabienne: 15:04

Thank you for you know. Summarizing a few words, it's not, no, that's.

Jessica: 15:12

I just think it's a really important lesson, because when we aren't born into those environments, I think many of us can feel very disempowered and not realize how we are actually capable of turning that around. But so much of what you're sharing. It sounds like to you your rebellion is just the fight to be who you are and to take up space in the world, and it's so interesting that we then call that rebellion right. Why don't we all just have that space and permission to be ourselves? We shouldn't have to fight for that and that we give these labels to people who are asking questions and Pushing against the grain and going, oh, you're so rebellious, but really we're all just Needing to be far more allowing. Create, you know, a world of permission for us to be more authentic.

Melissa: 16:02

I mean, then we wouldn't be able to have this podcast, if it was just what we do with our time, if we were fighting for this all the time.

Jessica: 16:11

So you have a quote. You have a quote that I love. In the book you say people pigeonhole creativity as belonging to a single individual or group of geniuses. They don't realize that every human has this incredible capacity to imagine and to change things. And that was Augustine Fuentes, and I love that Because that is what we're here to talk about. You know, the question of this podcast really is how do we unlock that capacity In each and every one of us, and that's something that you go into in your book. So we have a sense of who you are and I understand now why Innovation is so important to you and and the kind of personality that might get into this line of work. But how would you define innovation?

Fabienne: 16:55

This big black box and I don't know if you had the curiosity to google innovation definition, but you have like one billion definition and it is very intimidating. So what I found out? Actually it was interesting. When I moved out of the corporate world and more towers, the, the small businesses, the entrepreneurs and sun, I discovered that Innovation was scary, it was very intimidating and that they thought that innovation was just for big companies, big guys with a lot of money, a lot of resources and so on. And one of my first missions has been to demystify innovation, to make people understand what all innovators and I played around with a lot of definitions and I the definition I'm not even sure is for me, but this is something I adopted oh, let's put it this way is something new that creates value. And I give the example.

Fabienne: 17:53

When you think innovation, we think roughly okay, it's a new product, it's a new beauty cream, it's a new, but it can be a service. Like I say, the first take out was, you know, innovative at that time. It can be a process, like a Henry Ford first assembly line. It was very new at that time. So you have an entire array of innovation and the latest is really more business, innovation, business model Like the platform of rbnb or uber. But again, people think are new. I have to change the world. Nope, nope, it's new and that creates value, and value is the most important word. So I was giving my speech in a small workshop with entrepreneurs and a week later a lady called me and said oh, fabian, I applied your formula of something new that creates value. She had her hair salon. Okay, I had this new tagline and I put it on my window and I got new clients.

Fabienne: 18:49

As I see, something with the tagline it's not, you know, earth shattering, but it's new, because it was new to you and to your business and it created value, because you have more customers and people are happy, because they have the style they want and so, you see, so it can be anything. It doesn't need to be. As I say, when somebody created the vaccine concept, or it changed the world, it was huge, fine, it's an innovation. But this tagline was also innovation. So let's not reserve to the elite. Let's say innovation is every day, and if we innovate every single step of our life, every day, life will be better and value. So value, value.

Fabienne: 19:29

I think this quote is from me when I say that value is lack. Of beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And I give the example of a young entrepreneur created a rock climbing training and you say, well, yeah, it's not really innovation. Now If I tell you that this rock climbing training is especially for abused women, women who have been beaten, and that the exercises Are designed for them to require the self confidence and the self respect, wow, suddenly it's different because it's something a rock climbing training. It's new because it didn't exist for that target specifically. That brings value. Of course, it brings money to the entrepreneur, but the biggest value is that, basically, you are giving back these women's their life and this is the value.

Fabienne: 20:20

So the value can be anything. It can be very tangible and it can be emotional. 80 percent of the decision making is made from emotions Is proven scientifically. Why do we buy apple and not another computer? It's not that it's really better, it's apple, no, seriously. So it's, it's really very important. So the value is not only money, it's not really the bottom line, and this is why you know my chemical formula for successful feminine innovation. But it's based on that. The value comes from the emotion if people connect they will bring value.

Jessica: 20:52

How often do you think someone has an innovative idea that they shut down?

Fabienne: 20:57

It's all the time, it's every day, it's every day. Human beings don't like changes, and I'm included there. Okay, I mean a bit of a transition moving from New Jersey to South Carolina and so on, and it's destabilizing. And we like stability, we like our rules, we like to be settled and so on. We don't really like the change, we are not comfortable with it, but this is how we learn, this is when we are challenged, this is when we are innovative and we can be innovative all the time, but we're shut down because people don't like to stand out, they like to like the others, and especially the young generation with all the social media, where you have to be this way, you have to look this way, you have to. Well, no, sorry.

Melissa: 21:37

Well, one thing interesting that was jumping out as me, as you're sharing about innovation, is Something new that creates value.

Melissa: 21:43

So my business is called the ripple connection and at its foundation, I believe that the thing that makes us valuable is actually just being ourselves, and I used to think that, to your point, I have to do something to change the world.

Melissa: 21:56

I need to, like, cure poverty in a third world country or something like that, and what I'm hearing and feeling in my lived experience is that the something new Is you actually choosing to do life and business in a way that really honors your authentic journey, and oftentimes, when we can use our struggle so maybe the person that created that climbing program was a domestic abuse survivor and they took their struggle and they made it their gift and they use that to pay it forward in service Like it's not that simple, but it is that simple of Of being innovative is just allowing you to do your life in your way right, which is what you're talking about, this whole innate rebellion, and inside of that is, I think, so often we think we have to prove our value Like that. Our value is somehow earned or it exists in achievement, and I'm curious what your thoughts are on that of how is value assigned, and is it something that you have to earn?

Fabienne: 22:54

value is like success. People want to measure and and sometimes it's intangible. And this is again the masculine and the feminine. The masculine is about performance measurements and so on. It doesn't fit innovation, because Sometimes the value you bring is totally intangible. I remember when I retired from Colgate-Palmardier after 28 years, I had a party and we celebrated the value had brought to the company and so the bottom line for sure, the products on Anjwelawa. But at one point I had a very young scientist. She was very shy and very discreet and sad and she jumped into my arms and started to cry. I said thank you, thank you because you have shown me that I could be myself and still be successful in the corporation. I never realized the impact I had. So this to me all my years, this is the biggest value that I've brought to this company. To me, hmm, permission to be yourself.

Fabienne: 23:51

Yeah, so this is what I say. How do you define value? And some people may say, oh yeah, this person brought so many millions and I say you're fine, fine for them, good for them. But this value I brought to this specific person, it's huge. So this is my definition. So you have to find your own definition of value as the definition of success.

Melissa: 24:10

What's a more feminine definition? Right? The masculine is the measurable, the quantitative, that's the more masculine side of things. And then how you left people feeling.

Fabienne: 24:18

Yeah, and again, we need both. I don't say and this is, I hope it comes through in the book and in my speeches I love men, men are allies and I just met for a project this fall I met with an artist for collaboration and we're brainstorming and so on. I got one point. I said I have more masculine in me than you have in you, and it's true, he has a lot of feminine side. So, as I say, we were on the spectrum. We're all somewhere between the masculine and the feminine From where we are, our brains, but more our education, our bringing, our environment. So we're all unique there. We're just to bring what we have instead of trying to shut it down.

Jessica: 24:55

So you talk about successful innovation comes from utilizing or balancing both of these energies, these masculine and feminine energies. So can you help our listeners understand this concept of masculine and feminine energy and how they can empower us and how we can integrate these different aspects of ourselves, regardless of what our gender identity is? Ok, so innovation.

Fabienne: 25:19

Now I will play the teacher. But innovation, when you innovate something, you start from nothing and you arrive to a solution that is commercialized. Usually this is the entire process of innovation. So what you do? Let's say, I want to create a new shoe for women. So you will first try to understand what are women's needs these days, what is the consumer needs? So it starts with that. Then you develop different concepts and for shoes you will be different prototypes and then you have women try those. You say, oh, this one I like because of this. You take that, you refine it and then you have a product that works From there. You develop that, you work with manufacturing to make it commercial, a commercial product.

Fabienne: 26:02

Usually what we do when we do innovation and this is driven by the masculine energy is oh, I have an idea, let's jump to execution. Yeah, yeah, so it should be that, that, that OK. Oh yeah, this color is great, you all love that puff. And you do a prototype and you go. But if you don't spend time what I call in the upfront innovation, so the first part of innovation, the discovery part, that goes from nothing to the prototype, then you have the prototype to the execution and the commercial product. If you don't spend enough time there, garbage can reach out. If you don't really understand the needs of the women, and this is how we end up with high heels and I have a chapter on high heels. High heels like that that, oh, we cannot walk in them.

Fabienne: 26:43

And then you hear a famous French shoe designer who says I create shoes for women thinking of men, because they will have the pleasure of seeing them walking in them. What about how we feel Walking on this thing? That will break our back and I think food surgery is because of that. Ok, so, thank you. So when you listen to women, I want to feel, of course, feminine, elegant, I want to feel good, but I want to be able to walk. I want to be comfortable and don't have to have another pair of shoes all the time in my backpack because I cannot walk with these shoes.

Fabienne: 27:18

So this is really understanding really deeply, with empathy, what the target wants, and this requires what we call the feminine energy. Once you have the prototype OK, this I want to bring to market then it's masculine energy and we need that, because then we just dream and nothing happens. So we need it. So you take the prototype, you do the pilot, you have all the supply chain and so on, and then you need this focused, action-oriented, measurable masculine energy. But before, from the beginning to the prototype, you need that feminine energy. I hope it's clear. It is clear. This is really what is the essence. We need both, but they have to come at the right time.

Jessica: 27:58

I do have a question about this because I am curious. Why do you think we need to categorize certain traits as masculine and feminine at all, and is that?

Fabienne: 28:10

I knew this was coming. Ok, I hope you've been nice, but I knew it was coming. No, but seriously, I hate labels and I don't like to put labels in front. So, yes, masculine, feminine, why? So I did a lot of research what is feminine, what is masculine, what makes us masculine or feminine? And I developed that, yes, you have some things about the brain, it's more the environment. But then how to qualify? At one point somebody told me yeah, I don't like masculine feminine. You should say a color like a yellow and purple. I say yeah, but then you still put labels. It doesn't make sense. So a cat is a cat. We'll have day and night, we'll have feminine and we'll have masculine. So you can challenge that, but they are there and it's proven for some of them, like collaboration or empathy, that we have more than the guys, due to the brain and also the upbringing and so on. So we can discuss, say no, I don't agree with that. This is not masculine or feminine, but we have to settle.

Jessica: 29:08

I'm not trying to argue, I'm just curious, because I just wonder.

Fabienne: 29:13

I argued with myself. I'm a rebel with myself, not me. I was not comfortable talking feminine and masculine. I was not, because he was putting labels. But then I found this book from Rashid Soja and Nili Mabad. I have the pleasure to interview them also and we call it Shakti leadership and we can put it in the reference for the audience and they talk about that and I took this feminine and masculine for their polarity map because I thought it made sense to me. But again, yes, I agree that we can argue.

Jessica: 29:43

But it's not an argument. I'm just curious because we're talking about living in a world where we can all have more permission to be ourselves. Maybe we wouldn't have to rebel so much right? So I'm just wondering if, while labels are important in understanding our world to a degree, do you think removing these labels would allow us to naturally embrace a wider range of traits and energies, that we would be more embracing of all of these energetic qualities, regardless of the gender we identify as? Because I want to know how do we break free from these boxes, how do we utilize the full potential of that energy that exists in each of us? You talk about in the book stories of being among men who have such a resistance when you talk about our feminine qualities and bringing that into the workplace, and they have such a reaction to that. Do you think that we would have that reaction if we just accepted that all of these are beautiful traits that we can all embody? Short on stories, yes, yes.

Fabienne: 30:36

However, like a lot of things, it's about time. In the conclusion of the book, my first reaction was to call this book innovation has no sex, no gender, nothing. But we are not ready for that. We're just entering gender fluidity. We're just entering that. So I'm a scientist.

Fabienne: 30:53

I have to look at the reality, and the reality of the world is we're still gendered, we're evolving, but we still deal with gendered and this is what people understand now. So this is an evolution. But you have an excellent point, it's the evolution, and maybe it was two years ago I wrote that book. Maybe it's already past that, maybe I hope so. But you're right, these are qualities. These are qualities. So the first step is to say, okay, we still call them masculine and feminine, because this is the convention. The first step is to say we all have a mix of both worlds, all on a spectrum, regardless of if we were born with female or male organs or your biological sex, whatever. We are a mix of that and we can express ourselves. But the next step absolutely is to say we're human beings with all these qualities and we pick from them. But I think we need to transition if it makes sense.

Jessica: 31:44

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, let's talk about these qualities. Let's talk about the qualities, these feminine traits that you encourage us to integrate more into our lives in order to innovate, because these are qualities that I think have been in many ways dismissed or ignored or haven't actually had a place at the table, and let's talk through them a little bit. You talk about the feminine success formula, which includes empathy, nurturing, inclusivity, intuition, gratitude and collaboration, and what I love so much about this is that you're taking these traits that are often not seen as positives or strengths, and innovation, and they're actually our superpowers. I know that we might not have time to go through all of them, but I'm hoping that you can touch on a couple and why they're so important.

Fabienne: 32:35

Absolutely. And again, as a scientist, my approach was that I listed first all the qualities for a good innovator and then I looked at those that were to me overlooked, from my experience all these years, and the ones that had a feminine label. So, empathy, empathy is more feminine from the brain, the oxytocinazone, so it's proven, it's more women. However, anybody can be empathetic, of course, but empathy is so critical because this is the first step in innovation understanding the needs of the person. You have to put yourself in their shoes.

Jessica: 33:12

Literal shoes like, not high heels.

Melissa: 33:15

Yeah, flat, comfortable, sexy shoes.

Fabienne: 33:19

We were developing products for senior overall care. I had hired a company who had built a suit that was mimicking the effects of aging, like arthritis, like you know the breeze, the vision, everything was mimicking how it is to be older and we needed volunteers to try it and a young marketer. She was like in her 20s and so, oh yeah, all excited and she jumps into the suit. And then she had to perform, you know, brushing her teeth, going to the store and pick the products and then floss, and of course, with the suit it was really mimicking what it is really At the end. So she was taking the suit out and it was taking an awful long time. We were wondering what she was doing and suddenly she turned around. She was crying and she said I feel so bad, I've been bullying my grandmothers, but it was really physically embracing what it is to be in the shoes of another person. Each time you want to create something new, you have to put yourself in the shoes in the life, their environment, what their dreams are, what their fears are. So empathy is absolutely critical and the good news is that, yes, it's a little bit more feminine, but it's more by education.

Fabienne: 34:35

As women, we think of everybody around us before thinking of us. But this is in our brain. Yes, it is, it's proven. However, the most is education and upbringing. So we can change that. We can definitely change it. And the second piece of good news is the plasticity of our brain. We can rewire our brain. We can learn and acquire any skill. Then we can move quickly through the others.

Jessica: 35:01

Nurturing I love nurturing. That was my favorite.

Fabienne: 35:06

That makes sense for you, and it's actually so interesting one, because it's extremely difficult to translate into French when I give this speech. No, it doesn't really translate in any way. Nurturing is extremely interesting and needs to nurture the small ideas to become better ideas and big ideas. And nurturing. When I try to find images for my workshop, I always got images of women with babies. I was mad. I was like what is that? This nurturing is not really feminine, but it has been ingrained in our brains that, oh, you are such a nurturing. No, I am not especially nurturing.

Jessica: 35:43

I learned that by gardening, but I was not nurturing at all when I was younger, but can we talk about what that really means in practice, because I love how you talk about ideas. Ideas need nurturing. We need to give things patience and space and time to blossom. How timely is this? I'm very intentional about bringing this up.

Melissa: 36:03

Because we were literally just talking about that this morning. The last thing I said to her before we jumped on this was I need to have more patience and she said yes, we all do, especially when you're trying to innovate and you have an idea and you want to bring it to life.

Fabienne: 36:14

You want to get to the finish line. This is such an important point. I spend a lot of time on that in my video course for teenagers because this is this immediate reward world and the kids are even worse than we are, but we want that. You order on Amazon and you want it at your door. We are used to that now.

Fabienne: 36:31

But I say innovation takes time and patience. And it takes time because it has to grow and ideas, like a baby, has to grow. Most ideas, when they come to life, they are stupid. A lot of people loved the biggest ideas in the world but then they became big innovation. So you have to learn how to take your time and I know it's very difficult and when you think innovation there is also, I would say people think, like all these creative people with big hair with a room full of bin bags and you know, and the coffee and ha ha ha and everybody's having fun.

Fabienne: 37:08

Innovation is blood, sweat and tears. Innovation is very hard. It's very tough Because you are changing the rules, because you are going into the unknown, you are failing, You're coming back. It's very, very tough. You need to be persistent, but it pays off because the value to your poor melisa when you arrive at the end and you have this product or you have this idea and you have, like, your new business. This is beautiful.

Fabienne: 37:31

But like everything and this is what I love still about this world even if we are going through speed, speed, speed it still takes nine months to make a baby Okay, I'm sorry and it still takes time for an idea to up to fruition and see, if you try to go too quickly, then you create something that doesn't matter and then we are totally flooded with things we don't need in our lives. Let's be honest. So, when you respect all this beautiful feminine traits and especially nurturing, taking the time and so on, yes, you spend time. At the beginning, you think you waste time. You don't. It's time well spent to create something that is sustainable and that is meaningful.

Jessica: 38:11

Sustainable is such a good word. Yeah, to create something lasting, the roots have to be strong, and that takes time.

Melissa: 38:19

And before we jump forward, I really want to talk about the nurturing as it pertains to failure, because so often what I see because I support a lot of women that are bringing new ideas to the table and there's such a fear around getting it right, around it happening in accordance with a certain you know and I'm, as I'm saying this a lot, I'm like I know I do this too, but like on a certain timeline or that it has to go a certain way, and people don't try because what if it doesn't work right?

Melissa: 38:46

And with innovation there's a lot of it not working right, there's a lot of experimenting and nurturing it, and so I just want to speak to that, because part of what I want us to do in this podcast is give people the courage to try and try again, then realize that that is a very normal, natural part of the process. So I just wanted to speak into that before we move on, because I think if we can speak more compassion about the nurturing side of creation, we will be less fearful of failure.

Jessica: 39:15

Absolutely Well along those lines. You talk a lot about how innovation requires that willingness to embrace uncertainty, to make mistakes, to be open to the accidents, to explore the unknown, and I think many of us are very fearful of the unknown and are very uncomfortable in that uncertainty. So maybe along this line, you can help us reframe why that's such a good thing, why what we might normally interpret that lack of being in control is a bad thing, is actually a strength in this case.

Fabienne: 39:45

What you nurture, things is not like. And you say control, and it's very interesting because I learned that a lot when I gardened and it's true for educating kids. But when you garden and you grow something you cannot control, you can guide. You nourish, you guide and you watch grow. But I think this is Alexandra Fine who created Dame Products you know, these feminine products for sexual pleasure for women and she said something which was beautiful in our interview for the book. She said that a business is like a kid it grows, it grows and one day it has its own life. So you cannot control everything.

Fabienne: 40:27

Control is again very masculine energy. We cannot control everything and that's fine, but you can give the chances to a business to flourish and this is the beauty of it. Like an idea, the idea will grow and you cross this idea with another one and, oh you know, suddenly they have this life. I love this quote from this guy. He was talking about bars and cafes and coffee shops and this is where innovation happens and it is like in these places ideas have sex and I love that because it's the idea.

Fabienne: 40:59

They grew from each other. This is the jumping through, collaboration, this is the diversity. You have all these ideas, they all come together and suddenly something happens that is bigger than what if it's?

Melissa: 41:12

like an orgy. I love that. I love that. Oh my God.

Fabienne: 41:16

Oh my God, oh, she's right. No, that's all right.

Melissa: 41:19

I'm going to start calling my leadership meetings like some sort of like intellectual orgy or something.

Jessica: 41:24

Everything that you've been saying to me just sounds like what it's like to have a child. It's like being a parent in all these different aspects of your life. You have to nurture, you have to guide, but you can't actually control. Something is being born that has a life of its own.

Fabienne: 41:40

Is this exactly?

Melissa: 41:41

that Is this exactly that and it's interesting because I have a son who's almost six and what I'm very present to in this moment is I've been literally wanting to freeze him in time for like four years. I'm like he's so cute, so perfect. I don't want him to be older and bigger and be on his own. And how different I have felt about my business and like when we're talking about watching a child grow and how like I don't want to rush any part of this the infancy and this nurturing of him becoming his own person, and just what a beautiful reminder to treat, I mean, all of life like that really. But when we talk about business, to fall in love with the process of I was going to say the idea orgy, but I don't know that that really works in a sentence. Yeah, but I want to rush that?

Fabienne: 42:31

No, no. You want to enjoy every step? Yeah, and the same thing in innovation enjoy every step. Every step is fun when you brainstorm ideas. This is fun. I love that part. I also love when you select the ideas. Oh, this is where intuition comes into the picture, by the way, instead of having all these analysis, paralysis and all these daytime. So, yeah, fine, you need that, but at the end of the day, follow your gut feeling, follow your intuition. You are smart enough and intuition is not. Oh, I have this idea and I no, no, no, no, no. Intuition is grounded in science. Intuition is actually when you have enough information in your brain, you let it settle, and this is something we don't do. Sleep shower.

Jessica: 43:15

I love how you talk about do nothing. Yeah, do it. How good that is for the brain.

Fabienne: 43:21

And then your brain, in the background, is doing its beautiful work, and so smart it is doing that, connecting the dots. And why is precious? Because, first, even if we have the same type of information in our brain, we all have different ways of connecting the dots. And this is why, when we do that, you have this unique solution that comes to you. It's not coming from out there, it's not an alien whispering to your ears hey, you have to do that. It's not that. It's really in your own brain, gathering all the signals and giving you one direction. This is what intuition is, and it's beautiful and you have to follow that. So when you have a lot of ideas, oh yeah, you can rank and you vote. You always end up in the middle, always something that is blocked. You have to dare having ideas that are different, but at the end of the day, this is what will make the difference in the world or in your life.

Jessica: 44:16

I love this conversation. I really do. Thank you so much. I feel like my takeaway is, as we innovate or create in our lives or in our businesses, wherever we show up in this life, to approach it with gentleness, with our intuition. Yeah, I guess the takeaway for me is to do it and embrace the gentleness of that that we think go out and be a rebel. It feels like this very intense, explosive energy, but actually we can do it in a way that honors ourselves. We can surround ourselves with people who make us feel very safe and nurtured in order to show up more as to who we are. We can take our little ideas and plant them and nurture them into fruition and collaborate right. This is what Melissa is so good at bringing people on board who really help you bring these ideas to life as well. So all of this is so valuable and you're so lovely to talk to. Thank you.

Fabienne: 45:13

I know, I know, but lovely but fun. Usually this is what I get.

Melissa: 45:17

Fun and lovely. Well, I love that, I love your.

Melissa: 45:21

It's almost a playfulness, right, like you said, a lightness, a way of bringing joy, and sometimes all the things we're talking about around creation can feel so heavy and so intense and they can feel so like, oh, it's so hard you know and I love bringing the joy and the lightness to the process, because, yeah, of course it's really hard, but also can we have fun, can we be playful, can we bring the joy into it and find the way to really thrive, live in the process of all of it, absolutely. Thanks so much for being here.

Fabienne: 45:52

Yes, thank you, it was a pleasure for you for having me. It was a pleasure and I hope that you know inspires some people.

Jessica: 45:57

It will, and dare to move in Absolutely, and we encourage everybody to go and check out Fabian's book Venus Genius the Feminine Prescription for Innovation. Hey there, rebels. If you enjoyed this podcast, we would love your support in a few quick ways. You could like, follow or subscribe on your preferred platform to help others discover us too. You could also leave us a review. We also have a Facebook group and you can find us at facebookcom Slash groups. Slash in a rebel podcast, and you can find us on Instagram at in a rebel podcast. Your support means everything to us and we can't wait to continue this journey together.