Shazia Imam: From Rock Bottom to Sky High — How Adversity Fuels Radical Self-Discovery

Shazia Imam: 0:51

What started the podcast?

Jessica : 0:52

Oh what started it?

Shazia Imam: 0:54

I feel like you guys did it. You hit the ground running. You are just in it. I love it.

Jessica : 0:59

I think we were having a conversation, melissa, one day, and both of us said that it had been in the back of our minds to do a podcast one day. Then, melissa being Melissa, she just contacted me being like well, why aren't we doing that? Should we do it together? Should we do it together? Yeah, and it just happened.

Melissa: 1:16

I would say it just happened. We spent months figuring out, being very intentional about what are we doing. Why are we doing? It Is what you want to talk about, the same as what I want to talk about. Are our visions a lot? We were really.

Jessica : 1:30

Yes, I mean in terms of the spark of the idea. Very thoughtful.

Melissa: 1:33

Yeah.

Jessica : 1:34

Okay, yeah, once the spark of the idea happened, yeah. Then we had a lot of brainstorming sessions about what we wanted it to look like, but I had no idea what I was getting into. I have to be honest, I'm so glad we're doing it, but it was so much bigger a project than I ever imagined.

Melissa: 1:52

But don't you feel like that about everything, every bigger vision or everything that you end up really loving in your life, the things that take a lot of work you would never do if you actually knew how much work they would take? Yeah, that's a good question.

Shazia Imam: 2:05

We would never start anything I don't know. I have to think about that one. I mean, yeah, you're right.

Melissa: 2:10

Everything I'm thinking of I'm like, yeah, you're right, Think about your journey of becoming a coach and leaving your job and going through what you went through with your marriage and your baby and all of that, to become the one, the woman that you are today, to be able to hold the space and have the life that you have.

Melissa: 2:26

All of that, no, you would never be like, yeah, I would love to sign up for that. You would be like, absolutely not, I don't want to go through any of this shit. Yeah, no way. But it's such a critical part of how you're able to be who you are and have the life that you have today.

Shazia Imam: 2:41

Yeah, I remember too, even before everything had happened, when I was in the throes of everything and my friend was like, well, you're meant for something bigger, and I just burst out crying and I was like I don't want to be meant for something bigger, I want a boring life. Give me the boring life.

Shazia Imam: 2:58

So, it was really interesting, but part of the tears, too, were like I knew the reality. I knew that deep in my soul that was also my truth, but I didn't want it to be my truth. Who wants to go through all that and then be the one who's telling the story? I didn't.

Melissa: 3:15

No, we would not choose that. No, we're going to be going into the episode, so let me introduce you and then we'll go in. I mean, we're already in, but we'll we're in the shallow end and we'll just dive right into the deep end. One of the things that I am so present to is that I feel like even though you didn't know this and Jessica and I haven't even talked about this that you have been a part of this podcast coming together for a couple reasons. One you and I were in the same mastermind with Christina Maglino and became acquainted through that and established our relationship through that, and Christina is the one that introduced Jess and I. And you were a part of my first summit that I ever did and that was a big part. You know it's not a podcast. I interviewed 20 some people and you interviewed me on that, so that was like sort of a podcast desire kickoff. So you have been a bigger part of this journey than you probably have ever realized, so I feel special to have you here.

Shazia Imam: 4:15

Thank you, You're reminding me too, my goodness, the things that we do in the ways that we connect. Oh, I love hearing about that again because I forgot even I forgot some of that, melissa. It's just crazy, life gets so busy, and that just really grounded me in connection.

Melissa: 4:30

Thank you, yeah. So it feels really special to have you here and getting to share you with the world, and you've been such an important piece of helping me share me with the world, so it feels like a full circle moment. Shazi and mom is an award-winning speaker, an ICF certified coach and a host of the top 12 podcasts. Feminine and Fulfilled. After experiencing her own life fall apart and losing her own son and then husband, shazi realized it was a divine push to begin living her real life. This blossomed into finding her soulmate, discovering her feminine power and living her deep purpose.

Melissa: 5:04

Those are three very big topics that we could talk about for an entire season of the podcast, and one of her deep purposes involves women unleashing their whole selves to feel fulfilled, happy and full. And she says isn't life more fabulous this way? Which I love, because anybody who even looks at one picture of you could see Shazi presents a very fabulous life. Every branding picture you have I'm like this is amazing. You are so fabulous. We are so happy to have you here, Shazi, I'm welcome.

Shazia Imam: 5:40

Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here and connect with both of you. You both have such a special place in my heart. Melissa, you were sharing about how we connected and I wanted to say, too, that when we connected in the mastermind that we were in together, I just remember the like fire that you were Like. You are a person who takes action. I felt like we were kindred spirits because you know, when you find somebody that you just connect with and you're like, oh yeah, I see that mirror in myself and you were that person. I loved it. I loved witnessing your journey and I love seeing where you are today and chatting with you again. So I'm excited for that.

Shazia Imam: 6:19

And then Jess oh my gosh, jess, you had this profound impact on my life because you did my human design reading. I did my first ever Actually my only because I'm like nobody's ever going to do it as well as Jess. Yeah, it's true, it's so true, and it was so eye-opening and the depth that you went into and showing me who I am in that lens. I go back to that over and over and over again that my purpose truly is to be myself, to enjoy this life, and I keep getting taught that lesson over and over again, even though, of course, my perfectionism is like no, you're supposed to do XYZ. And it's like no, jess said I'm a human designer, you know to enjoy. And it's been right every single time.

Shazia Imam: 7:04

So I'm so excited about our conversation today.

Jessica : 7:07

Thank you so much and thank you for being here I was so excited to see you again. I am just in awe of you and your work and everything that you are bringing to the world. I was tuning into your podcast, which is amazing, so we have so many juicy questions for you. I'm really excited to dig in.

Shazia Imam: 7:24

I'm an open book and I love juicy. You know Careful what you say.

Melissa: 7:28

Yeah, careful what you say.

Shazia Imam: 7:30

Oh no, you can ask whatever, just mark the episode explicit if needed. We've been doing that lately, yeah like most of our.

Melissa: 7:36

Most of ours are like explicit, explicit, explicit. It's fine Because we don't want to censor, you know. We don't want to censor anybody. That's the whole point of the podcast to truly be your authentic self. So we've gotten asked by I don't know how many people are like can I say fuck on here? And we're like you get to be whoever you are. So that's the point of this, you know.

Jessica : 7:53

So, on that note, there's a question that we like to lead with that we ask all our guests we know how incredible you are, but I also want to hear more about your experience being yourself, and so we ask who are you and how is that different from who you thought or were taught you were supposed to be?

Melissa: 8:13

Gosh, okay, that's a big question.

Jessica : 8:15

It's going to be right from the get go.

Shazia Imam: 8:17

Yeah, I love it. You know who I am is. I have many layers and facets. I am on a journey with myself in that there's the shazia that you see on the outside and, yeah, I love my branding photos. They're amazing and I love to show up vibrant. I believe we should be in color, living in color, and I'm all about that. And there's also a part of me that is very deep and thoughtful and deeply caring.

Shazia Imam: 8:49

I'm a very sensitive soul too, so I'm very strong but also sensitive, and when I was young, I learned very early on that I was very charming and that worked for me. It really worked for me. But at the same time, I also learned very quickly, growing up in a very dysfunctional household, that there were things that I couldn't share, and so a large part of my life was being something on the outside but feeling very lonely on the inside. My role was very performative. You know I did great. I did great in all the checkboxes, got a great degree and got married and did all of the things, got a great job.

Shazia Imam: 9:34

And, yeah, on paper I've always looked really good, to be honest. I've always looked great. That's not new for me. But what's changed for me from the way that I thought I had to be was I no longer feel that I only have to be that perfect on paper, pretty on the outside woman. I get to be all of me and that means showing the full range of who I am, and not just to the world, but to myself, really exploring those parts of myself, really being in relationship with. Wow, everything in my life these days is really amazing and also I still feel very lonely. I still feel like that. So, exploring that, what does that mean? Do I get to be with that person? Do I still love and accept myself? Yes, I do, but that piece of loving and accepting myself is the piece that really was the journey that I only discovered, I would say, in the last decade.

Melissa: 10:34

Can you walk us through that journey of getting to be more loving and accepting of yourself?

Shazia Imam: 10:41

Yeah, you know, I think I was. So, actually, what is the word? It's not disillusioned, it's like illusioned. It was like I had almost faked it so well to myself that I didn't realize that I didn't accept myself right, that I was trying so hard. And I don't know if you guys know your enneagram, but I'm a type three, so it's the achiever. So for type threes, we're all about the outside and we derive our worth from outside validation. Yeah, as long as I had that, I felt like I could keep going.

Shazia Imam: 11:13

But when life happened, you know, as you shared in my bio, my son passed away and then my marriage fell apart quickly.

Shazia Imam: 11:21

Thereafter I found myself more devastated at the loss of my marriage than the loss of my son, and that loss was so great for me that I would drive around and wish a car would come hit me so that I could die, because I felt that my life was not worth living if I was alone and I had failed, and I had deemed that I was a failure because everything I'd worked so hard to build had completely unraveled.

Shazia Imam: 11:55

So this is the level at which the outside validation, the external, was such a driver that I didn't even think it was worth me being in this world because I didn't fit some mold. And when I hit that rock bottom I really had to take a look at myself and say, like who am I? Right that age old question, like who am I? Because now I don't have anything, I have nothing to define me, I don't have a relationship to define me. I didn't care that much about my job, you know. But what defines me? Nobody sees I'm a mom anymore. What is my role as a woman in this world? And it was a really interesting place to get to and then go on that journey to discover myself.

Jessica : 12:40

Yeah, I just wanna say that we have some parallels in our experience, and I relate to the piece of identifying so much with the ideas of perfection and the perception from others. That was what was making up my identity. And then I had to go through a similar process, this sort of dismantling, where everything that I had previously identified as who I am based on what I think, jessica, should be unraveled. And I sat in that same space of who am I without all the things that I put in place to create an identity, all of these ideas of who I'm supposed to be. We can all create very successful lives upon an idea, and then there's this moment in time when it's kind of like the universe swoops in and blows it all up. Yes, and I'm wondering for you in retrospect what you think that experience of losing all of it? What was that there to really show you and teach you, and how do you feel that that actually ended up aligning you ultimately with who you are today, which is such a deep embodied, powerful version of yourself?

Shazia Imam: 13:51

Yeah, I got chills when you asked that because it really like I can feel it. I can feel the resistance I had to the universe being like no, no, no, don't let everything end. I did everything to like hold everything together. But when I look back now, even when I got married, I knew that my former husband was a really nice guy but he wasn't the right guy for me. He was the best that I thought that I could get, given who I was and given the beliefs I had about myself. And he looked great on paper. I mean he was, you know, six foot two and handsome.

Jessica : 14:29

I mean his name means handsome, like he can ask the question yes, was that conscious in the moment, like when you were marrying him? Was that a conscious awareness or is it just in retrospect? You can see that you felt that way.

Shazia Imam: 14:43

You know it was semi-conscious. Let me say that because I can't be like, oh, I knew when I still walked down the aisle. It's not that, but it's also not that I didn't know at all. It's like I kind of knew. I was like, oh, I wish that we had been more partners intellectually, and I didn't feel that. But I was like, oh, but he's great, he's the bachelor of the community, right? Everyone was trying to hook us up. So it was like this model pairing, but I just I knew semi-consciously it wasn't the best fit. But I mean, who's gonna complain? Who's gonna complain?

Shazia Imam: 15:18

But to your point, it wasn't aligned truly to my path. It wasn't aligned to the woman who I am. I'm a highly ambitious driven. You know I care about things. I'm a total rebel. It just didn't line up with that. It was lining up to like be the model couple in the community kind of situation, but it was very stifling for me. And not because he stifled me I wanna be clear about that but it was what I took on, is what I thought I had to do, and because I allowed that to be the thing that made me smaller, the universe really did come in and say Shazia, like you are not living, to who you are, to your potential, to your reality, to your authenticity.

Shazia Imam: 16:04

I didn't know those words at the time, but when things started unraveling, I felt like I was at the edge of a cliff. Like you know, when you're skidding, you're feet in, like you're digging your heels in, because you're like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't take me off the cliff, don't take me off the cliff. I felt like that, like I was about to like, come off the cliff and just sink into a black hole. That's what I thought. I thought, if I went off the cliff, the only thing on the other side was this deep abyss and I would be done. And the universe was like pushing me and pushing me and like start off as nudges and whispers and then finally it just pushed me off and I feel like the divine pushed me off the cliff and then I soared Like I didn't fall into the abyss, I soared and I did not plan that at all.

Shazia Imam: 16:48

And it's really fascinating that when I got pushed off the cliff and all of a sudden I'm facing like who am I? That question, who am I? And I chose to align with it and I chose to go all in like, literally all in, and by all in. I told people I was working on myself, esteem. That was the journey I went on. I was working on myself, esteem, and that alignment is what caused me to soar, because we're always held. But gosh, if somebody was stubborn, it was me. It was me For the universe always knows better.

Melissa: 17:23

I would love for you to talk us through the discernments that you have now, because it's a tricky line of this is great, like you were talking about your ex-husband, like this is great, I can do this, like are we talk ourselves into these things that we think are the best choices for us, versus fully aligned? So there's like an acceptance of pretty good, like maybe even great, but not fully aligned. So what do you know about that now? And how do you discern? Cause that's a slippery trap and we get into it over and over again. It's not like I figured it out once I'm done with that lesson. So how do you discern that now?

Shazia Imam: 18:01

You know, melissa, such a good question, because I don't think I would have done anything differently. I don't think that at that time, if I had made a different choice, of course my life would look different than the butterfly effect. But that's part of my journey too.

Shazia Imam: 18:14

It is so nuanced, because sometimes something is great and it's okay to be great, right, good enough is good, and we need that in our life too at times, rather than chasing after the notion of something perfect, sometimes I can see women waiting for Mr Right and I'm like there is no Mr Right. There's a book actually called the Case for Mr Good Enough, and I highly recommend it.

Shazia Imam: 18:39

It is actually really really good and it was a really eye-opening book, especially, you know, in my later years after my divorce. But there is a case for Mr Good Enough. But there's also a case for full alignment. And if it were so clear, of course we would all just do the thing. But life isn't that clear, life isn't certain. It's actually very uncertain. And I remember something profound I had heard that changed the way that I looked at things. What it was is that our success is directly correlated to our relationship with uncertainty. Our success is directly related to our relationship with uncertainty, and so, even to this question, I don't have certainty in the answer to this question because it is so nuanced, and I think the best that we can do, if somebody's like, tell me, give me an answer. I need to know the formula.

Melissa: 19:36

Shazia.

Shazia Imam: 19:37

I know, give me the blueprint. I'm a former engineer, so I do like structured thinking, but in this case it's not structured and what I will say is that we can do our best. We can be honest with ourselves. I think that's the greatest gift is to be honest with yourself, and when you create that deep relationship with yourself, alignment can come much easier because you have that awareness. At that time in my life.

Shazia Imam: 20:06

I didn't have that consciousness about me, but I just kind of knew, but what I've done it different probably not Going back to this idea of dismantling your identity and how scary that is.

Jessica : 20:17

we want certainty. That's part of it. We want certainty in who we are. We want certainty in our belief systems and our ideas of how life works. And part of losing all of that why the question of who I am is so scary is because all of a sudden, you don't know your place in the universe anymore. You very vulnerably shared about you in that car. You know. Just make this all go away. How were you able to go from this is happening to me to this is happening for me? Like, how were you able to turn that around and say I then soared Cause there's so many people going through this right now? I know for myself that it is still a journey for me, learning to let go and not be a victim to what happened. So how were you able to make that shift?

Shazia Imam: 21:11

Yeah, I mean you already said the word let go, so that is going to be in my answer. It really happened in this moment. I remember I was on the acupuncture table, so all these needles are in me and she leaves me in the room and it's like the one time I can't do anything. I'm such a doer, right, but I'm just lying there with needles in me so I can't do anything. This was right in the midst of everything happening and as I was lying there and I'm just in stillness, I could feel like my exhaustion, my exhaustion and trying trying to make this facade like stay, like just if I could just keep all the pieces together, if I just did this or if I just did that. I tried so many things to keep the marriage together, to keep my life together and not have anyone know. None of this is real.

Shazia Imam: 21:59

So I'm lying there on the table and I just I had this conversation with the divine, with God, and I just said, look, I can't do this anymore. Okay, I cannot do this and I'm going to give it back to you. I am giving it all to you because I cannot do this and I genuinely, for me, gave it. And what I mean by gave it is that I let go right, because I was taking the burden, I was taking the responsibility as though I was responsible, as though I was the one whose hand was facilitating everything. And clearly it wasn't working because it was never my hand that was facilitating anything. Things happen in divine perfection.

Shazia Imam: 22:41

And in that moment, when I said I give it back to you, just take it. It was what I needed to finally let go, to finally understand that there was nothing I could do like do like actually physically do to change things. And it was time to let go and surrender. I would not have used that word at the time, but what I'm describing is surrender.

Shazia Imam: 23:07

That energetic shift just allowed me to pause, to stop, to not freak out about time, like, oh my God, what's gonna happen? And everything felt so time dependent, everything felt so urgent. And all of a sudden it was like that exhale, that deep exhale, and that set things in motion because I finally let go. So, again back on the cliff, I finally stopped digging my heels, I finally stopped saying please don't let me fall off this cliff, and I just said I'm gonna let go, I'm standing here, I am open, I receive Again. I'm sounding very wise right now. Those are none of the words I would have used at the time, but by simply giving it back, that's what was happening. Is that I wasn't exerting anymore.

Melissa: 23:58

I'm hearing a lot of these like feminine, masculine themes and obviously you're this is probably not even gonna do it justice but like into the feminine, you're teaching about the feminine. You have a podcast feminine fulfilled. It's a big part of who you are, your story, and I'm hearing this like you didn't necessarily say busyness, but I'm hearing this like doing this, pushing this, forcing this, controlling what I would put in a box of like the toxic masculine way of being that we're trained to be, and then finding a moment of stillness. And in that moment of stillness and I always had been adorning to arrive there it wasn't just like I finally sat down and then poof, you know, it's like getting to the point where you were still and you allowed yourself to be open to surrender even though he didn't have these words and to receive which I would put in more of the feminine energy if we want to categorize these things and how.

Melissa: 24:49

that was the thing. What is the way in which you relate to the balance of these, this feminine and the masculine, and this receiving versus doing, and the controlling versus allowing? How does that play out in your life today and, I guess, what's been the journey of that since you started to practice this in that moment on the acupuncture table?

Shazia Imam: 25:07

Yeah, you know, I really believe in pendulum swings. Actually, I really believe in going from one extreme to the next, and I think it's a really interesting way to do things. I do this with my clients too. So I love that you brought to the masculine feminine, because that helps me too. To describe it even better is that I was hyper masculine. I was trying so hard and I had my eye on the prize, which I thought was this one outcome, and at that time, this one outcome was keep it together. So you look good for the community, right, that was my target that I was trying to hit, but the truth is that was never the target. I just didn't know that I didn't have the capacity to see things in a bigger way and that there was so much more that was waiting for me. So when I gave it in that moment and it sounds kind of like airy fairy, of like then I gave it and then everything just worked out.

Shazia Imam: 25:54

What I will say from the feminine perspective is I did swing the pendulum. I all of a sudden stopped doing everything I'd been doing. I stopped trying. I literally stopped trying. I stopped working so hard. I stopped being like well, that's the target. I'm like something's off here. Whatever I'm doing is not working, and so when we swing the pendulum all the way to the other side, we start doing things or stop doing things in the way that we've always done it, and we go to the opposite extreme. That's where we'll find balance.

Shazia Imam: 26:24

I always think about, you know, a pendulum. When you swing it, it will ultimately always come back to balance. But if you've been hyper extended on one side for so long in your life and for many women it's actually in the masculine okay, because we live in a masculine driven society. It's what we attribute to success. When we're hyper extended in that way for so long, the only way to come back to balance is not some like nice, feel good kind of thing. It is literally to drop that pendulum so it can swing to the other side, and that's sometimes why it feels like a spiritual storm.

Shazia Imam: 27:03

Oftentimes, when our life needs to change, it's because we're not willing to let go, and the universe is like well, if you're not gonna let go, you're like getting in your own way and it will swing you. So for somebody who wants actionable things to do, do literally the opposite of what you've done. So for me, I just stopped trying. I stopped reading all the books, I stopped trying to do all the things. I changed even the way I looked at things. That was the action I needed.

Shazia Imam: 27:30

So when I think about my balance today, I'm coming back more into my masculine in some ways. I went to the feminine for a very long time and it's very much my essence too. I know I'm in this world to be a part of the feminine rising. But I'm starting to actually bring back my masculine a bit and seeing that, okay, I need to bring back some of my engineering brain and get back into some structure and back out into the world and show up, have a goal and meet the goal. And I love that because I feel that I can balance the two. Now I can see where I start getting too masculine and then it's like, okay, we'll come back into flow. And then I'm getting a little too flowy and just like floating in the river. And then it's like, okay, but Shazia, like where are we going? So everybody's balance is different, but to find your own, I think that pendulum swing is very, very important. You have to almost do the opposite of what you've been doing up until now to see things change.

Melissa: 28:28

Don't you feel like we just got a global pendulum swing with COVID, though I feel like it was like the whole globe was going in one direction. Covid came, won the pendulum the whole other way and now we're like, ugh, no, but we're still in the oh my gosh, we're like nauseous.

Shazia Imam: 28:43

We're nauseous right now Over square.

Melissa: 28:45

It was like a global pendulum swing. As you were talking, I was like I was finding the feminine at the same exact time and I literally had a coach say to me like you need to do nothing for 30 days. She's like you need to clear your calendar, you need to stop being so productive, you need to chill out for 30 days. And I was like what a death sentence. You're a nasty woman, why would you tell me to do that? And then the next week, covid shutdown happened and I was like, well, thank God, the whole world's doing it, because I couldn't even fathom doing this for 30 days voluntarily. And so, as you were speaking, I was just feeling that of not to make light of COVID, but just this pendulum swing of like now you're all going to be home, I've got nothing to do. Yeah, and try to be productive now. So it was just feeling the like global shifts that are happening in the masculine feminine right now.

Shazia Imam: 29:32

Yeah, and notice the resistance we had globally too. I mean, of course, the pandemic was very devastating for the people who passed away and got sick and so many more people their lives change in a positive way. Actually getting that slow down, getting the opportunity to see that you don't have to operate from this paradigm of work, work, work, go, go go. And yet there was still resistance in that, but secretly, because people were having side conversations and private conversations. People were happy to be at home and now more people are talking about it. People liked it, but you couldn't like it in the moment either. Like, just notice our human nature to resist the thing in front of us. When we're in the hustle and everything is go, go, go, we're like, oh, I just want to break. And then the break comes and it's like, oh, but this sucks too, and it's like you know what we really. We really get to be better about being like universe you know what you're doing.

Melissa: 30:32

Yeah, we're hard to please here, very hard to please.

Jessica : 30:36

I would like to get into the nitty gritty of this a little bit more, because I think breaking the habit of being yourself is actually really, really hard to do.

Melissa: 30:47

I mean, you spend 30 years being and a book title.

Jessica : 30:50

I am the book title. But you spend 30 years being one way and then this huge force enters your life and dismantles all of it. So you are to some degree forced to confront yourself and look at your beliefs in the way that you've been living up until that point. But you said that you were working on your self-esteem and you also acknowledged that when you got married, you had this feeling of I'm doing this because this is the best that I think that I can get, and actually shifting those beliefs and coming into a deeper sense of self-worth, a more embodied self that I now see you living for a lot of people. That's a big jump, Even if you're surrendering, how do you actually take that next step, Like what are the actionable steps or the things that you started to implement in your life at that time? That said, I am going to show up for myself differently.

Shazia Imam: 31:42

OK, so I do have something so actionable that I did, because, yes, I also have to take action and I also love spreadsheets.

Melissa: 31:50

So I hope that goes Great. You know that in the first 30 seconds of this entire podcast, jeff is like I have to tell a secret about Melissa and I'm like, oh God, what is she going to say? And she's like she loves spreadsheets, you do. So, shazia, we can have a whole other podcast just about our love for spreadsheets I love organization and systems and documentation and things flowing.

Melissa: 32:16

And I love spreadsheets Probably not to the level you do as an engineer, but I would love to talk about that later with you over with a hot, steamy spreadsheet conversation with you.

Shazia Imam: 32:28

Oh, please, and if we can talk, about tips and tricks to make it even more efficient. Oh, I love it. I follow it. I don't remember the handle, but this is Instagram handle. We're literally. They just show tips on Excel, and I love every single one.

Jessica : 32:45

Every single one, and I don't use spreadsheets at all in my life anymore, but I still love spreadsheet.

Shazia Imam: 32:50

This is your porn.

Melissa: 32:51

This is it, oh my God. Spreadsheet porn. It comes up again on this podcast. Could you just put a formula in cell A7 for me real quick.

Shazia Imam: 33:02

I mean, I love using concatenate in Excel in Google Docs. Oh my God, I don't even know that word Concatenate it's when you can take two columns and it would be like Melissa Boknight, Like you would be in column A and column B and Jessica Rose would be in column A and column B and then you would do in the column C concatenate, and it would put your full name in the one cell.

Melissa: 33:26

Isn't that amazing, my brain just, I just hit off your faces are so bored, I just thought that it was going to be way cooler than where you went with that. And then get ready everybody. They come together and I was like, is that what we're doing? Concatenate, how to make somebody fall asleep on a podcast. I lose everybody. Everyone's done. We lost all of our viewers. My gosh, how do we come back from this? Oh, my God, I don't even know what we were talking about. Oh, action, full steps, action full steps.

Melissa: 34:01

You're concatenating, so what I?

Shazia Imam: 34:03

did is I went, jess is dying over there. Jess is like. I don't even know what the F you're talking about.

Melissa: 34:08

She's like this shit's falling off the rails.

Shazia Imam: 34:11

Ok, oh God, I'm so happy Go home and I create this dreams list. I'd read about it somewhere and so I was like oh, let me make this dreams list in a spreadsheet. So I went home and I literally created a Google Doc and I was like I'm just gonna write my 100 dreams and I couldn't think of 100, so I thought of 10. So I wrote down the dream and then I put checkboxes and other columns like literally in progress, complete, no, like detail.

Melissa: 34:42

I mean, did you color code it? So I did it was so geeky yes. Yes, scott, I love this so much. I would do this, Just so you don't fail alone. I would do this. I would do this. I would do this now, like today. I would do this, I would color code it. Well, I actually have the template as a gift.

Shazia Imam: 35:00

Spoiler alert, but it's not in a spreadsheet. I made it really pretty and you know I'll share about that later, but anyhow I'm happy to give that away. But my version was this really boring spreadsheet but I wrote things in there and what was interesting is I wrote some things in that list that were really easy, like buy chocolate chip dunkers from Trader Joe, like that's an easy win, right? That wasn't my dream list.

Melissa: 35:26

That's great. I mean I get our desires come in all like all levels.

Jessica : 35:33

I mean, what's wonderful about that is it shows you that you can start really small yeah.

Melissa: 35:40

Start with your favorite Trader Joe's item, because everyone has one.

Jessica : 35:43

Everyone has one Really achievable, really believable, yes.

Melissa: 35:48

This is how you become a millionaire. Everybody take note. You start with your favorite Trader Joe's item and you put it in a color coded spreadsheet and then you can catnate that shit in your real life. That's how you do it. Did I use that correctly?

Shazia Imam: 35:59

in a sentence. No, but it's okay. I just like the fact that you use the word. Also, we need another episode on money, because I am a millionaire.

Melissa: 36:07

I wanted this episode to be a millionaire.

Jessica : 36:09

We're going to talk about it. We're going to get there.

Melissa: 36:11

Okay, we're going to segue to it really efficiently, since you love efficiency.

Shazia Imam: 36:17

So let me just finish this real quick. So, yeah, something really small and achievable. But another one I put in there is that I want and this was while I was in the marriage that was falling apart I put a dream that I want to be in a marriage where my husband loves and respects me, and that felt impossible. So, anyhow, I filled out this dream list. You can see how broad the dreams were, and then I will keep adding. Right, I will keep adding. And then it became something fun, and then I'd be like checking off oh, I did that. I started that. I took this class, I went trapeze flying, I took a class and trapeze flying I started doing things that were actually things I wanted to do, not the things I've just been doing. So it was taking a new look at my life from this lens of. Here are my dreams. I mean, my life is falling apart. It's awful right now. Well, if everything's falling apart, what would I do if I start again?

Shazia Imam: 37:13

So that's where that was born from that spreadsheet. That's great. I love it.

Jessica : 37:19

I know we want to get some money, but you just said something that I just don't want to skip over is that you wrote down that you wanted a man who loved and respected you. But you didn't think that you could have that at that time. But very quickly you did manifest that you did find him. So what was that? Can you talk us through that process?

Shazia Imam: 37:37

Did you have to do some inner work there, or was that just going through the list you know it's interesting because everything I've done is such a combination between throwing everything at the thing and then just really trusting it. Really. It's this level of faith that's so big. So I will say that between the start of 2013 and the end of 2015, we're talking about like two to three year time period I was married, got divorced, was single and then got married again. So a lot happened very, very quickly and when I look back, I did throw everything at it. I created my first ever vision board. I started doing all the things on my dreams list. I was just so aligned I was magnetizing because I was so aligned to who I am that even when I talked to my husband now and I'm like what did you love about me? And I want to hear like, oh, your beautiful personality and smile. He's like I loved your energy. That's what I fell in love with.

Melissa: 38:40

I love that compliment no but you know saying you have a hot ass is also nice too. Yeah, but he can love your energy and your ass. They're not mutually exclusive. Maybe your ass's energy was on point, I don't know it was. I mean, all of me was.

Jessica : 38:58

Are you saying that your feeling of worthiness and deservedness came as a byproduct of you starting to take all these actions that aligned with who you were? Did that build your self-esteem, or was there a deeper, limiting belief that you felt that you had to move out of the way?

Shazia Imam: 39:13

No, it was that. It was the worthiness piece for sure. It was being worthy enough to even ask for the things I wanted to really ask and to believe that they could happen. That, I think, was the biggest journey, along with aligning with who I was, because once I started exploring like, who am I? It's not like I became a different person, it's just that I came back to who I always was. Yeah, I was in a capitalist form. That's what needed to happen, so it's not like I had to become this whole different person for my life to look amazing. It's that I had to become exactly who I am in the biggest way for then everything just to magnetize.

Shazia Imam: 39:52

I mean, it is so the truth. So if there's anything that's holding you back right now or you're not allowing yourself to be, whatever that is, and it has to be all the things. It can't just be the pretty toxic positivity things, okay, it can't just be all the things. Something about me is like I'm very passionate and I can get really angry, but I don't judge that that anger can bring four things that then turn into something. But if I'm trying to be like, oh, but I'm just really nice and I just always think so nicely about everything and everyone, I mean that's BS.

Shazia Imam: 40:26

Yeah, there are things that make me really angry, there are levels of consciousness that are heavier, but those are the things that can slingshot you. If you allow yourself to go into the place of like, why does my life sucks so bad? It's okay to be there too. It's okay to allow yourself to go into the depths of the heavy feelings and then use that to slingshot you to those higher levels of consciousness, because now you understand, now you can say, oh, this thing is making me so angry, because actually this is a waste of my time. I don't want to do this thing I keep spending energy on, or this thing I'm really sad about oh my gosh, this really hurts me and giving yourself that space. So, again, everything that I'm talking about is like this wholeness of who you are, accepting all of that. There's no place you need to be, there's no fixing of you. It is truly embodying all of you and allowing it and having a good time in it too.

Shazia Imam: 41:28

I don't think anything I've talked about in terms of my journey has been miserable. Part of my journey was when I was resisting. When I wasn't resisting is when I could have fun and be expansive. It also doesn't have to be so hard. The peace around.

Jessica : 41:43

The dismantling that the two of us have lived through, of all of these pieces of our lives falling away, is that, when you look back, they're the inauthentic pieces. We talked about being honest with ourselves. If we're not actually being fully honest with ourselves, something comes and shakes us awake. Once you let go of the ideas of who you're supposed to be, you do live in that space of I don't know anything, but really you don't need to, because who you are just is. You just come back to your essence. And when you actually start creating from your essence which sounds like what you were doing everything does come in and start reflecting your deeper desires, sometimes the desires you didn't even realize you even had.

Melissa: 42:28

Like your Trader Joe's chocolate pieces. Yeah.

Shazia Imam: 42:30

I have to share this one thing. It's coming through so strongly. You get to shift a belief too and I know this is going to land with the woman who needs to hear this. You get to shift the belief that your life has to be sad or hard or bad. You get to truly believe that your life gets to be good. I don't think enough of us actually believe that. We've been conditioned and socialized to think it can't be To give yourself that permission and that space to say me as I am, I am worthy, I am deserving of things to be good, because we actually most of us our homeostasis or our balance is actually in trauma or sadness, like constant sadness or hardness. It's actually the homeostasis that we typically are in. So, doing the things, the energetic work to say okay, if I allow myself to stand in worthiness, my beingness is enough and I am worthy of a good life, I get to have that and learning to hold the energy of that that piece is really crucial.

Melissa: 43:42

Yeah, it is, and I think also that can be where the anger kicks in, because what I have found in myself, and actually pretty much every woman that I have coached, is there is like a piece in there where anger gets to come along in the journey. It's invited in, it's invited along. So if I have been sad or if I've been tolerating this life that's like kind of bullshit, honestly and if I have been mistreated or if I have been accepting less than and now I'm starting to believe that life gets to be good I deserve more than this. Pissed, I am pissed and I like one of my biggest transformations.

Melissa: 44:19

It was like a year ago because I was doing the somatic movement and I was starting to sit with my anger and I was like who I used to think anger was wrong and bad and an unnecessary emotion that I'm not supposed to feel it and I started screaming in my car and screaming in the pillows and saying messy things to my husband, not like all the time, but like saying the things that I was scared to say for years and years and years and years and years, because I let myself be so fucking angry. And I think women are angry as a whole and I think we have every right to be and I think that becomes a part of the equation of I actually deserve something more. It's like a necessary piece to get angry. Yes, pause.

Jessica : 45:00

I think it's a step into worthiness. I think it's an important stage that you have to enter into.

Melissa: 45:08

I think it's scary, because you're like is it gonna eat me alive? Is it gonna take me over? Am I gonna destroy my life? Am I gonna say all these things I can't take back? What's it gonna do? If I let it in, it's like well, it's probably gonna give you a beautiful life. Yeah, if you know how to move it.

Shazia Imam: 45:23

It will today in the United States. Let me just say that it is still unsafe. It is still unsafe in another part of history and many parts of the world to be fully expressed, and so I acknowledge the privilege I had.

Shazia Imam: 45:37

Thank you for saying that, to be able to do that, and, yes, this privilege allows for this fullness and wholeness. It is, for sure, the way forward, and I don't take that lightly. Now I'm like, well, I am here in this time and place for a reason, so I can have that, so then I can show others. So sometimes you're the kind of person who does things outside of yourself Like you. Being yourself is the most important thing that you can do in this world, because there are so many women who cannot and could not. You don't even have to look for outside of yourself. You can look at your own mother, your own lineage to see that. You know what.

Shazia Imam: 46:13

It wasn't that long ago that a woman who expressed her anger, she was put into a mental institution. She was told that she was crazy. It is scary. We have been conditioned to be good girls To keep the peace, but that is what has caused us to be so caged, and that's what's causing the anger is that we are not meant to be caged, we are not meant to be stifled. So for those of us who can be in this place where it is safe to do it, lean into that, because it will ripple out to others.

Melissa: 46:50

And yeah, yeah, my whole body is just like I want to like ah. But thank you for presencing that too, because it's like we are so fortunate and it is our job, like we have the ability to use our voices. We have the ability to be supported in that we have the ability to link arms with other women who are doing it. Oftentimes we have partnerships. I know this is not the case across the board, but for those of us that have partnerships that can handle that like it's our job, I think it's my job to be able to use my privilege is a force of good in the world and to use it to lift others up and to use it to find my voice and find ways to express these things that are not harmful and that can invite other women into the conversation, and men. Honestly, this is not just a conversation for women, but we're so lucky.

Jessica : 47:41

Yeah, we're so lucky.

Jessica : 47:43

I know that we're very short on time, but I would love to take that as a segue to talk about money for a second, and one thing that I love about everything that you are sharing today is that there's so much permission that you're giving to be all of yourself, like all of the different parts of yourself, and there are a lot of women struggling with feeling worthy around money, to feel like it's OK to have money, and this is something that you're an expert in. So I am wondering if you can maybe offer some insight to those listening who might be in that place of struggling in their deservedness, maybe a reframe or something that you've learned.

Shazia Imam: 48:28

Yeah, I love where this conversation has gone because it's just brought out my passion really lies in women's power, right, and wealth is a part of that. So, as we were just sharing, I mean until today, even my family's Indian my dad came to the US in the mid-70s and I was born and raised here but very connected to the Indian culture and I know that there are women who live in villages, who can't even go to school, who can't even get an education, and I'm over here living this super privileged life and sometimes I feel guilt about that. Sometimes I feel like who am I to be here and somebody else is over there and they don't get to have that. We all can look at our own circle, our own family, to see where we came from, and wealth is a part of this conversation. It wasn't until literally the 70s that women could own a credit card in the United States.

Jessica : 49:29

That's insane.

Shazia Imam: 49:30

Yeah, this is a fact. Ok, like that is insanity. That is absolute insanity.

Melissa: 49:37

It's insanity.

Shazia Imam: 49:38

So I am so passionate about women being wealthy because women give back. We're known that once we have wealth, we share it. We're community oriented and it is more important than ever that we have money. So, even if you don't think that you're deserving, if it moves you because you believe somebody else is deserving, then make the money to help somebody else. Start there. There's nothing wrong with that. Now the deeper level, of course, is like hey, you get to also have money. You get to have that. You get to have the ease, the conditioning of things having to be hard. It's conditioning, it's not reality. And when we start to step into the wealth, it feels really good, it does feel good.

Shazia Imam: 50:20

Let's not buy into this whole like oh, just be do-gooders. Pay attention also to the most female-dominated fields, like nursing and education. These are the two lowest paying fields, hardest working. The amount of work is not commensurate to the pay at all. But what's the driving force in education and nursing Is oh, but look, you're caring about somebody, you're taking care. You don't need money for that. How's to the? Yeah, you need money for that. Yes, yes, you do. So I often think I will tell you something very actionable I do when it comes to thinking about wealth, and I'm looking forward to the time that you know, of course I ascend from this thinking, but for now it works. But I always like to think oh, what a white man do. Well, what a white man do. In any situation where I'm feeling a little bit smaller, I'm like well, what a white man do, and that's what I do.

Melissa: 51:18

It's like the new bracelet. Instead of like what would WWJD, it's like WWWMD. Those are our bracelets that we're going to get. Somebody once said like have the confidence of a mediocre white man and I was like, oh my god.

Jessica : 51:32

I ask about that, though, because you also teach so much about being in the feminine and so much of the talk around that is that we can do it in a new way. Maybe just expand on that a little bit. That is the only way to make money to deep into what men do.

Melissa: 51:46

Well, white men specifically, yes, white, men specifically.

Shazia Imam: 51:49

Let's be specific you know, from the feminine.

Shazia Imam: 51:53

this is an important piece too. So there are things to do when it comes to wealth, about going after it right, negotiate for better pay. There are things that are really important. There's a woman her name's the financial feminist, tori Dunlap, so she talks a lot about the tactical. I would highly recommend giving her a follow.

Shazia Imam: 52:10

But from the feminine side, there gets to be this trust that money is flowing to you so you can do, do, do, do, do. But the same paradigm comes in, where at some point you also have to let go and understand that what is meant for you will come to you. So, in that way, what is meant for you will come to you. You don't want to block it by believing you're not worthy of it, because that's a block too. So putting your arms out and saying I receive right and imagining abundance falling into your hands is a beautiful feminine way to say I'm ready to receive and your physicality shows it right.

Shazia Imam: 52:56

So it is important to step into that place and, at the same time, also not get so worked up when things are not necessarily going your way, because what is meant for you will come to you. I don't want to spend too much time on that because I think we're already hard enough on ourselves. So I don't want to spend time on that piece. But the other piece about being open, being curious oh, there's a great book, it's called Secrets of the Millionaire Mind by T Harf Ecker.

Melissa: 53:27

I just downloaded it. I saw that on your thing and I just downloaded it. I think my spiritual mentors are talking about that. Anyway, go on, I'm so pumped so I literally, just like last week, got it in my queue.

Shazia Imam: 53:37

Yes, it's such a good one, and then we should all be millionaires. By Rachel Rogers, that's a good one too. So anything that's starting to talk about the money mindset, these are some great starts. But when I think about the feminine, what I've had to do is like expand my receiving muscle, because that is the feminine to receive and just be like I invite in more. I invite in more. Money can come from anywhere. There's so many ways to make money. I get to be wealthy, I get to have money, I get to be rich. And the last thing I'll say with this, too, is getting really clear on what it is that wealth is to me, because it's not always just money, and then creating the space for that too. For me it's freedom. For somebody else it might be a relationship, but wealth is so many things and, again, allowing yourself to receive that.

Jessica : 54:32

Can you share what your money mindset was before and what it is now? That's your relationship to it.

Shazia Imam: 54:39

Okay. So again, I grew up in an Indian family. I don't know if you know this, but Indians are really cheap, I can say that because they are. So culture there's a big emphasis on education, making good money, saving your money, and then you get to live a good life later, later, later. That's what I grew up in, and everything is about how much does it cost. So that's how I thought. For a long time I didn't spend on myself. I mean, my dad wouldn't even let us order drinks at McDonald because he was like this is a waste. And do you know that they're making 90% profit on this and it only costs them five cents? I mean now being able to buy sparkling water at the restaurant, because I don't actually drink soda or juices or anything. I don't drink alcohol either, so I buy sparkling water and that is such a luxury right. So just to show the change.

Shazia Imam: 55:34

But the money mindset really was so much about save, accumulate, save, accumulate and one day I can enjoy, and that was so exhausting. Mm-hmm.

Shazia Imam: 55:45

What changed and I'll tell you through a story is that my friend came over one day. She was a Feng Shui expert and she comes over to my house and she's like Shazia, your house is beautiful, okay. So she's walking through and she's like everything's gorgeous. And then we get to my bedroom and she's like why does it look like a bachelor pad in here? It was a bed, this ugly olive green comforter and a box as a nightstand, white walls, and that was it. Now we just came from this beautiful decorated with crystals living room and dining room and all the thing, and I realized I was doing the show. So everything that people would see was beautiful. That was love for you.

Shazia Imam: 56:25

But what was it for me? It represented my money mindset, my mindset about myself, and so I did a makeover and I made my room beautiful, beautiful. I painted the walls Palladian blue by Benjamin Moore, which was a very watery blue. I bought this beautiful restoration hardware tufted linen bed and I got this beautiful wood carved piece from Z Gallery and I put in these gorgeous sconces with hanging crystals of cores and it just became this beautiful place to go into.

Shazia Imam: 57:00

And that was the shift I made, is that I started treating myself as worthy, and this all coincided with the journey I've been talking about today Allowing myself not just to do the fun things and find myself, but also to spoil myself, to spend on myself and to enjoy the things. Why was I waiting? If we wait today, we'll be waiting forever, because we'll never know the energy of what it feels like to be wealthy, and so that was the shift in mindset that really happened, and that's what I continue to do. I continue to invest in things that fill me up and set up the things to make sure that I'm invested in all of that. Those are important things, but also, for me, knowing that spending on myself is the best investment I can make.

Jessica : 57:54

Even if that's just cookies from Trader Joe's.

Melissa: 57:58

Full circle, full circle, my friends.

Melissa: 58:00

But, it's true, because it doesn't have to be. I think people get caught up in like I actually can't afford it, right, if people don't really have the money. We're not trying to get you to go into debt, but like doing something for yourself doesn't have to even be expensive. Right, it's a symbolic act of I am worthy of treating myself to this thing or this experience or whatever it is, because what feels luxurious to somebody might feel basic to somebody else or might feel like extravagant to somebody else. I remember when I started to do my color work.

Melissa: 58:30

It was like back when I first met you, shazia, I literally replaced almost my entire closet and I had not been buying things for myself at all and I would hide them. This is 2020, I would order online and I would like sneak them upstairs. So my husband didn't see them because, like he can't know I'm buying things for myself Not that he cared at all, but I would hide it. And then I'd like try it on and I'd be like, oh my God, I love it. And then I would like hide it somewhere in my closet and be like, hopefully he doesn't notice there's things that I'm adding to this, like I don't want him to know that I'm starting to spend money on myself, like I was starting to like closetly, give a lot of shits about myself.

Melissa: 59:02

But I didn't want him to be mad at me Not that he would have been, but that was the story of. I can't believe I'm spending money on myself. Who am I Like? I'm so greedy and selfish. It was such a journey, so I love that you brought that up, because it's like do something that feels out of your comfort zone. You don't need to drop, like 10 Gs on a wardrobe, but figure out a way that you can symbolically claim I get to take up the space for me, yes, yes.

Shazia Imam: 59:30

And you know there's a secret too, because it was hard for me to spend. When I talk about the bedroom, I actually set a budget for myself because I didn't just have all the money. I was going through divorce. The bed I told you about I ended up finding it for half off at the outlet. I wouldn't have even known to like look for it, you know.

Shazia Imam: 59:49

So there is a feminine and I call it feminine because I think it's feminine there's a feminine secret that when you start buying the things or doing the things that are so lined up with what you deeply desire, the universe truly will do everything to make it happen for you. The secret in life isn't that you need a Trigelian dollars to do the things you want and live the life you want. The secret is you start with what you want and you trust that the universe will provide it will fill that in. And every time I have invested in something that I really want, the money will show up. Maybe it's a tax return or I find a discount, I don't know. Something just happens. I don't know how to explain it anymore, but this is where there's that trust piece. It can all work, so it can be big, small, it can be whatever, but it's waiting for you to just decide. You don't have to be small. Take a bowl of ice it's five times.

Jessica : 1:00:45

And one thing that I'm taking from this conversation and you can correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but a lot of the things that you've shared, it sounds like taking micro-actions or even big actions before you actually think or feel that you're ready. It's like who do you wanna be and what are you dreaming of? And even if you still have that feeling of unworthiness somewhere, a lot of us try to fix ourselves before we think that those things can be created in our reality. But what if you actually just took one small step that might feel really uncomfortable today towards the life that you want and see what happens? And then when you actually get that feedback from the world around you, it then starts to change the way that you think and feel about who you are. Does that make sense?

Shazia Imam: 1:01:32

Yeah, yes, can you do my marketing, jess? Yes, like you encapsulated that beautifully.

Melissa: 1:01:40

Yes, jess's brain just like wraps a beautiful, luxurious bow around everything and is like this is what just happened.

Shazia Imam: 1:01:47

Succinctly, we're always like I'm gonna tell you another story, and Jess is like you take micro actions before you're ready, like you're correct.

Melissa: 1:01:57

The end and you put it in a color coded spreadsheet Goodbye.

Jessica : 1:02:03

I think I have an obsession with cracking the code. I do and I think I really, really I wanna crack the code.

Jessica : 1:02:11

I wanna understand and I don't think there's one way necessarily. But I love understanding, especially when I look at someone like you who went from a similar scenario that I found myself in and turned it around so dramatically. You're so beautifully embodied in who you are. You're doing such powerful work and bringing so much love to the world. So I look at where you came from and I look at where you are and I'm like, well, I want her secrets. It's something that she's doing Well.

Shazia Imam: 1:02:39

Thank you, Jess, and I will share the secrets. As I mentioned earlier, I have the gift of my 100 Dreams List Template, not in spreadsheet form, beautiful form for you, with still some check boxes but no Excel required, and I'd love to share that because that is really the secret.

Shazia Imam: 1:02:56

Like you said, the micro actions, and it's a chance for you to write those dreams down. I'd love for you to have that. It's at thelifeengineercom slash dreams. It's exactly the template I talked about today, and just starting with those cookies that you love or ice cream that you love, starting to really enjoy and follow your desires, really is the secret, and taking those micro actions, it's the secrets.

Melissa: 1:03:21

Yeah, it's. If there's a secret, that's the secret it really is. It's like do the things you love. Wow, mm-hmm, yeah, really Did you get it. It's that simple, it sure is.

Melissa: 1:03:33

Well, I have so loved to spend this time with you and have a little bit of a giggle fest with you, and I've missed you. This has made me realize I've missed you. I'm like, how do I have more shawzi in my life? So, thank you for being here, for sharing your juiciness. We're gonna have season two, congratulations, thanks. So we'll have you back for like a full on money, money, mouse career session.

Shazia Imam: 1:03:58

Yeah, I'd love to talk to you about wealth languages. Yeah, I think that's very juicy, but we need more time.

Melissa: 1:04:04

Yeah, wa-wa, I would love. It All right, thank you for your generosity and your vulnerability.

Shazia Imam: 1:04:08

Thank you for having me.

Jessica : 1:04:09

So good to see you.

Jessica : 1:04:19

Hey there, Rebels. If you enjoy this podcast, we would love your support in a few quick ways. You could like follow or subscribe on your preferred platform to help others discover us too. You could also leave us a review. We also have a Facebook group and you can find us at facebookcom slash groups, slash inter Rebel podcast, and you can find us on Instagram at inter Rebel podcast.

Jessica : 1:04:40

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