SPEAKER_02: 0:02

To even question what you've been told is true is incredibly courageous. It doesn't always feel like courage, what looks like courage to other people. For me, it feels like survival. This is our personal medicine.

SPEAKER_00: 0:15

If I'm surrounded by thinkers, by lovers, by passion, by integrity, then I really do think that I know who I am.

SPEAKER_01: 0:21

There is a piece that is indescribable when you're being who you are and you're living your purpose. I'm not gonna come to the end of my life and be like, I didn't live the life I was meant to live.

SPEAKER_04: 0:30

Can I be so comfortable in the unknown and so comfortable in that uncertainty that every version of it is going to be okay?

SPEAKER_05: 0:38

This is the Inner Rebel Podcast. Hello, hello, body. Hello, body.

SPEAKER_06: 0:53

Hello, hello, puppet.

SPEAKER_05: 0:58

There we go. All right. We're better. Love a better.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02

Oh yeah. I am so excited to have you back. We had such a great conversation last time, but we didn't get into the money stuff the way that we planned. So I'll give the floor to Melissa to do an intro of our first recurring guest. We love her so much. I really I love you all. And if anyone wants to go back and listen to the first episode with Shazia, that would be season one, episode 24. Rock bottom to sky high, how adversity fuels radical self-discovery. And we get to talk to Shazia again. And she has so much light and wisdom, infectious joy. And I can't wait to dive in with you today. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_06: 1:46

Oh, I feel so special. Thank you. I had a great time on that episode too. I still laugh sometimes. There are some really laughable moments.

SPEAKER_05: 1:53

Yeah, because we got really into like spreadsheet porn. Wait. Cacaffeinate.

SPEAKER_06: 1:58

Cacatenate. Cacatenate. It's like when you drink too much caffeine, you cacaffeinate. Cacatenate. Concatenate. It's when you bring two cells together with various words, and then you bring them together into one cell using a formula called concatenate. It's the best.

SPEAKER_05: 2:14

Concatenate. And then for those coffee drinkers, you can cacaffinate also. So there's a lot of things you can do with this word. Oh my goodness. Well, Shazia mom is an award-winning speaker, host of the top 12 podcast, feminine fulfilled, and lovingly known as the life engineer. After two decades of thriving in the corporate world as an engineer for Fortune 500 companies, Shazia hit the reset button to follow her heart and soul's calling. Now, as an ICF certified life coach, she's on a mission to help women embrace their true selves, live with purpose, and step into their power and cacaffeinate like a boss. I'm gonna reach out to your assistant Jazzy to have her add that in there. Feels like a missing link. People can't really understand you without that.

SPEAKER_06: 3:05

Is this the right moment to say I don't really drink caffeine? Sure.

SPEAKER_03: 3:08

You're not, you're you're decaceinated. That's amazing to me. Because not only are you the life engineer, but you're the life of the party. You bring so much life force, and I am so impressed that you don't need caffeine to do that.

SPEAKER_06: 3:22

I do these days, as I'm getting older, I've hit that hump of like those perimenopause ads in Instagram are really becoming real relevant. Real relevant. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 3:34

Yeah. We were laughing last night because my girlfriend and I went to a talent show for the elementary school, and we had our two seven-year-olds in the back, and she looked at me and was like, I wish I had their energy. And they said, we did before they came. Like they did this. They're the reason we don't have that kind of energy. Oh my gosh. And perimenopause, probably. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 3:55

Yeah. So many things. But anyhow, that's a conversation for another day. But I'm so glad to see you both again. It's been a long time. So glad to see you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 4:04

What is your relationship right now with your inner rebel?

SPEAKER_06: 4:08

Oh my goodness. That's such a good question. So, what's interesting is there are two things that came up when you said it. One is a revolution around wealth and money. And the second is actually a quiet around rebellion. They both seem like they're totally opposite ends of this conversation. But that is what is true for me right now is that I'm definitely in a more quiet season in my life, which doesn't mean I'm I necessarily show up any differently, but I'm noticing how I'm much more focused on how I'm protecting my energy. That feels like a rebellion, right? Because protecting your energy as a woman means not people pleasing as much, not saying yes to all the things. And sometimes I just need some quiet. This is coming from somebody who is very extroverted. I love being around people, but sometimes I just need some quiet from all the noise and all the things. So that's one part of it. The other part regarding wealth and money is I actually did a masterclass this week called How to Get That F you Money. Okay, we're talking the F you money, the one where you can say F you and have an opportunity to have that ultimate freedom, right? To do what you want, when you want, how you want. And I really wanted to have this class because I think it's really important to start talking about the conversation in a deeper way. And one of the things that was really important to me, and I started off the class with it, was acknowledging that we are very privileged in where we live right now and how we live. And the revolution to me is actually being able to take that privilege and not be apathetic because personally, on a very personal level, I feel, I feel so torn with everything happening in the world right now and in our own country, right? There's so much stuff where it's like, are we in a twilight zone? Like, literally, are we in a twilight zone where it is okay to do things that are just absolutely wrong and oppressive? The leadership in 2025 in the United States of America is a convicted felon numerous times, who is a misogynist, who is a number of things. Okay, I'm not going to get into politics, but you already know my politics now. But to not even have a leader with decorum and charisma and simply just being able to be somebody that you can look at in high regard. That to me is so representative of the world we're living in right now, um, where we're seeing that all across the board, all across the world. I believe that the revolution now is that women, marginalized people, minorities, people of color, anyone who can check even one box these days. The revolution is that we absolutely get to have access to wealth, access to money, access to power so that we can make a difference. And so to me, being wealthy is a rebellion because somebody like me typically would not be. And to be able to do it and change the world, but also not have to change the world just to have it because I'm just as worthy as somebody who can literally become president with the lack of credentials. People with that lack of credentials can't even get a job. And this person became president. If it takes so little for certain people to be at the highest of places, then absolutely talented, caring, compassionate women like us also get to be doing that in whatever way is meaningful to us.

SPEAKER_05: 8:03

So I mean, I want to go on a political rabbit hole with you right now, but I don't know that that's what we need to do today. But my blood is boiling.

SPEAKER_03: 8:12

There's so much you just said that I want to unpack. One thing when I think about the money stuff that I work through, and I think a lot of people feel some guilt at the notion of having a lot of abundance when other people don't. And one thing that I've been trying to understand or integrate in myself is that it's very difficult to be of service when you're in survival. Not that you can't be, of course, you show up in the world and you can be generous of spirit and make a big difference in people's lives, of course. But in order to have the kind of impact in the world, like revolutionary impact, it really does help to have resources. It really does help to step into your power.

SPEAKER_06: 8:56

And I wonder if you can speak to that. Yeah, I think it's so important. So, you know, going back to the class, it was really interesting because I shared what I shared with you. And then I was like, who's ready to start the revolution? This is a revolution. Because we can't sit back and become apathetic. So I even put in those questions like, how do we get to be well-resourced, right? How do we move towards things that will keep us well-resourced, that will give us power, that will give us money? How do we do that when, yes, like you said, we're feeling so bad when others don't have things? That's a real feeling. And I want to acknowledge that. But we can't allow that to let us become apathetic or not be doing the best that we can do in who we are. So this is something I always believe we should do. Be the best at who you are, and let's be strategic. Okay, let's be strategic. I want to dispel the notion because what we've seen up until now in many places is that those with money and power tend to be people that we don't respect or we don't feel like we want to become. When you don't have that modeling in front of you, you're actually creating something new from nothing. And that also starts creating belief systems that money is bad. Money changes people. You're going to turn into somebody who is going to become this person that you don't want to be. And so so many people who are so compassionate and so giving and can make such a difference end up repelling things away energetically rather than allowing themselves to also be people who get to be well-resourced so that they can make a difference. So being able to talk about money very frankly, and I'm happy to do that today in any way, shape, or form, if that is a way to open things up, being able to talk about that and being able to say, I am worthy of having that. And it will allow me to do more of what I want because we do live in a world that requires resources, like you said, Jess. And we can't pretend that it's not. We we just can't. It's not working. It's actually causing more problems with people being too nice. And that's why I'm talking about getting that FU money. I want people to have that F you money so that you can literally do what it is that you want and not be stuck like a cog in the wheel or on the hamster wheel, just spinning and spinning and spinning.

SPEAKER_05: 11:28

I have been on such a journey with money lately because I had a great career. I did very well from day one out of college and was very successful financially and independently. Going from that to a startup has been a real mind fuck for me because I went from self-sufficient, earning a great living, having my independence, to then going for my dreams, which I know it'll be successful. I'm not, I don't have doubts about that. But there is a point, especially when you are a founder, if you don't have VC money, you don't have PE money, you know, where you're going for your dreams. And sometimes, a lot of times, like I did it before, where there was a bridge where there was something else that I had that was funneling into. But now my whole energetic output is around this huge vision. And so it's been a very interesting dynamic in myself and a great, great healing opportunity around, oh, I'm only powerful if I'm the one that makes the money. I'm only powerful if I'm independently wealthy. I'm only powerful if I don't rely on, in my case, a man to support me. And so I'm curious your thoughts on these power dynamics, because on one hand, you do have power and freedom when you have money, but also speak to the rise in that. And what else can bring us power? What else can bring us sovereignty as we're on our way to the FU money? I don't think that our only power is when we have money. I think we all deserve it. I think we're worthy of it, I think we're all capable of it. It's interesting being in this place right now where I'm reevaluating my self-worth and what it means all around money and getting supported with money. Because for me, money has always been freedom. When I was younger, I was like, well, if I can make money and get out of the house and no one can have power over me because they're not controlling my financial decisions, then I am free and I have power and I'm sovereign. And that's how I got my freedom.

SPEAKER_06: 13:36

So I'm curious when you're talking about this place you're in now, there's this place of clarity I just want to get where you're talking about not from somebody else or something else. Can you speak to that a bit more? Because that is a very nuanced conversation.

SPEAKER_05: 13:54

So for me, it's like we're funding the business and we're reliant in this season of startup with my husband's income. So I am dependent financially in this season, and that's very new for me. I've had these visualizations where it's like, I'm not weaker because I'm learning how to rely on support. It doesn't take away my power, but so often it does. When somebody has to rely on somebody else's money, they don't get to make the decisions. They don't get to feel worthy of their dreams. They don't get to feel like they get to have the things that bring them joy because it's not theirs. I'm interested in this conversation because it's a different lens than like, I have the money, I'm sovereign, I'm wealthy, I've got this shit. Like, let's fucking go.

SPEAKER_06: 14:44

So it's so interesting you bring that up because I've actually been in a similar sort of thought myself. I think it is an interesting conversation when you've typically been a very independent woman who is very well resourced, right? You had the independence, you had the money, you had a certain lifestyle, you were very successful at what you did. And now you're in a place where it's very different, right? You're relying on somebody else. There's two things that come to mind. And the reason I've been in this place is because I will say that for the first time in my life, my partner is making more money than me. For the first time in my entire life. I think as of last year, Antonio has surpassed what I'm earning. And I thought about that because I was joking around one day and I was like, oh, baby, like what if you just take care of me? And he's like, Yeah, of course. And I felt so uncomfortable with that. I was like, oh no, no, oh God, no. There has always been this assumption that my husband's made more than me. And Antonio's my second husband. It's a really interesting thing because I've actually been the one who's always made more money. I don't talk about it because, you know, societal norms, you're not trying to like put a man's business out there, but I'm just sharing transparently that I always have. I had to actually in this last year, as he's making more because his business is growing and business has been slower. In the personal growth industry, it has slowed down. Like, let's be really honest. So I had to think about am I okay with somebody providing for me? My personal answer was no. However, when I'm listening to you, share Melissa, and you're talking about this. If I was talking to you as my client, I would say that is just an additional source of revenue. Right now, that is a revenue stream in your life. And it would be very neutral. You know, if I was looking on the outside. So when I hear you, it's very neutral. But I can feel what you're feeling because I get that. There feels like where the money comes from matters, but from an energetic perspective, it actually does not matter where money comes from. It's just about the flow of things. But there is this important conversation that you're having and even I'm having of where do we feel like we can feel that sovereignty truly?

SPEAKER_05: 17:04

I mean, that's a big question. Well, and it's also generational, you know, it was the way women have been treated. It was our expectation to be in the home, to not earn the money, to birth babies. I think a lot of that is the patriarchy that is ingrained in us. Sure. And it's valid too, because there's a lot of people that choose different paths or give up their independent wealth and maybe take care of the family or whatever that is for you, and then find themselves in a situation where they're like, uh-oh, this marriage didn't work. Now I don't have my own independence. And so it's interesting because in the flow of life, in the flow of the seasonality of our roles and our identities, it's like some seasons we're here, we're on top. Some seasons we're shifting things, taking more space, maybe shifting our careers. And there's a fluidity to wealth inside of that.

SPEAKER_06: 17:56

Yeah, there's absolutely a fluidity. And one of the things when it comes to wealth is understanding what it even means to you. This conversation is so interesting because a woman could be in a phenomenal, wealthy, like her husband makes a ton of money situation, and she could not feel wealthy because she does not have that independence. And then you can have someone, you know, I gave this example. I have a friend I've known since we were in diapers. Very early on, when we both graduated from college, she had a baby. I think when she was like 19, she got married young and she had a baby young. And she decided to live a very different life, meaning, like, she didn't get that corporate job, she didn't do a lot of what we were doing. But she lived this incredibly free life. Like she has hiked all across the country. And she's gone to so many amazing parks and met amazing people and homeschooled her daughter, and she lived this very alternate lifestyle from like the status quo. But to me, she's lived the wealthiest life because she's been so free. She's never talked to me about, oh, I wish I had more money. She just finds a way to make everything work. And I've always really admired that. So also, wealth is not about the amount of money, it's about what it means to you, you know? So it's not about just amassing more wealth. I actually think she's living that F you money life because she never actually got one of those nine to five jobs where she was supposed to work 40 hours a week, but was working 60 hours and chained to this cubicle. So that's what I think is most important is what does wealth really mean to you? Even F you money, what does that mean to you? And, you know, Melissa, in your case, because you brought it up, you're creating that. You're already in it, right? You're doing something. You left corporate, you left, you're creating it. And now are you willing to see, well, this is how the universe is providing for me right now. I may not love it, but it is a way that it's coming to me so that I can do this thing that really feels like the thing I want to do versus being financially independent, which you could do anytime again. What's what's really important to understand when it comes to money and the questions you're asking, which are really interesting because they're related to identity, everybody's money journey is actually really specific. And there's a lot of cookie-cutter things that are out there. I always tell people look, you can go out and you can Google how to invest, have an emergency savings account. The financial literacy pieces are actually all out there. Okay. And if I were to just boil them down, you know, if somebody is looking for a framework right now, what I would actually say is make sure that you are investing money. Even if you are somebody who is currently in debt right now, also still put money aside to start investing. The investment options are investing into your retirement and then also investing into something that you could pull out within the next, you know, within the next 10 years, let's say. So you want to be looking at also investing while paying down debt because a lot of people don't talk about debt. But I'll tell you from my experience, the majority of people, vast majority of people, are in debt. My recommendation is always to pay that down. That is going to really support you. So these are just two really simple things that if you can begin to pay down your debt, that will snowball and start paying itself off. And if you can also be investing at the same time, that will also be like a snowball and will start to grow for you. So these are two just like really basic financial literacy things. And we can go into more detail about that. But what I want to move beyond actually the cookie cutter things is the money journey is actually really specific to you. It means something to you, like to every single person, the identity question exists. The question of like, well, how can it actually come to me exists? And I am over here trying to think, how can I distill it in a way that can go out to like a mass audience? And what I'll say is this at the core, money it can come in a number of ways. So let's not actually tie our identity to where it's coming from. If we're looking at money as a tool for exchange and a tool that resources us, then let's not give it that extra power to also be something that defines our identity. Money will never be the definer of your identity, no matter how much power we give to it. And I'm just gonna be honest, because we do give power to it. Why? Because of the stories that we grew up with, right? Our own feeling of our identity, our own feeling of worth. And even I think with all three of us, we're all very self-aware of ourselves and we're still having these questions around money and identity. But from a money mindset perspective, I invite everyone to just let it go. However, it's coming to you, that's just the way it's coming to you in this season, and that's great. And we get to celebrate that. It doesn't mean anything about you one way or another. I think that's major.

SPEAKER_03: 23:21

I just want to just pipe that I think that's a really major statement to make.

SPEAKER_05: 23:26

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_03: 23:27

Because it neutralizes it so much. And I think we have, especially as women and feminist women and empowered women, we do tie it into identity because I think that's what we've been fed.

SPEAKER_02: 23:39

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 23:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 23:42

Yeah. And to me too, it's all also been very hierarchical. And I I think there was a subconscious thing that was running in my family around this of you're better than me. You're smarter than me, like measuring each other up in a lineup. And those that have more actual money, I know wealth is a spectrum. But that is it's an interesting energy. And I would love for you to dig into the energetics of money that we might be missing. Like when you're saying it's actually neutral, it doesn't mean anything, but we make it mean so much. So much. And it's interesting too, because I live in a pretty well-off area. And a lot of the women are, I mean, the men all work too, but a lot of the women are making more money. And there's a lot of nice things, and you're like, oh, they're buying a second house and they're buying this. And then you're like, shit, we gotta remodel our house again. We need new furniture. We gotta buy the, you know, it's like you start to the comparison game. So I would love for you to dig into the energetics around this and help us neutralize money.

SPEAKER_06: 24:50

Oh my gosh, yeah. That's so juicy because you know what? It's not just that we're doing this hierarchical thing. Everybody's doing this hierarchical thing to each other, too. But don't talk about it.

SPEAKER_05: 25:02

So that's what's happening everywhere. Like, don't fucking talk about it. Like, people are like buying house. They're like, I don't want you to know what I'm like, the what you paid for your house is gonna be on the MLS. Like, we're gonna know. You know, not a three million dollar house. You know, but it's so tacky. Don't talk about money. But meanwhile, it's like running the show for everybody.

SPEAKER_06: 25:22

A hundred percent. And who is saying not to talk about money, by the way? It's women and people saying it to women. This is so a part of the patriarchy, right? Women shouldn't talk about money. Do you think that men are not? They are. They are. Not all of them, right? Like, I don't want to lump them all together. But a lot of the men who have a lot of money are talking about money because that's just normal and natural, right?

SPEAKER_05: 25:44

Yeah. Yeah, it totally is. I I saw this post the other day that was something I was triggered by it because it was like the boys' club, the old boys' club, or whatever you call it, is kind of on to something. Not in like it's okay or they should do that, but it's like, what if we started to bring some of those conversations to the surface? Yeah. To help each other out. You know, there's this sacred nepotism of the old boys' club, they're hiring each other, they're having these insider conversations. And as women, we need to be doing some of that too.

SPEAKER_06: 26:14

We do. And, you know, I actually don't think that there's anything wrong with that. I think that's natural. If we're a group of friends and an opportunity came and I knew, like, hey, Jess, you're gonna be great for that, wouldn't I want to tell you that? That's why it's important for us to be in more powerful positions, to be talking, to be growing together and elevating because it brings everyone together. It really does. And there is this book I read a long time ago called Secrets of the Millionaire Mind. Have you read this? By T. Har Becker. So, one thing I loved about the book, and I'm sure if I read it today, I would be like, I don't love it so much anymore. I have a feeling, but at the time I learned a lot because it was about money mindset and thinking about things in a different way. The reason I'm bringing this up is because when I was reading the book, I had gone to this dinner party with a group of friends, and I was like, hey, y'all, I'm reading this book. It's called Secrets of the Millionaire Mind. I'm thinking about starting this Millionaires Club. Some people are like, What is that? And I'm like, I don't know. But let's just start it. And it's gonna be a place where we talk about money and we're gonna talk about becoming rich. And some people thought, like, I was, you know, doing one of my wild ideas again, and they just kind of ignored me. But some of my friends were like, Yes, we want to be a part of that. So I started this WhatsApp group called Millionaires Club. And it was literally just the same group of friends that typically hung out together all the time. But we started talking about money, it became more open, and everyone in that group became millionaires. Can you add me to that test? Can I ultimately add to that? So I'm actually starting a millionaires club in January. Yes, you can come in based on this promise. And it's just, it's kind of crazy because it's not even that we were like, let's exchange stock tips or something. It was simply talking about being millionaires. It was simply putting it out on the table and starting to have different conversations. Oh, Jess, do you have a question?

SPEAKER_03: 28:10

It's not a question, it's just a it's just a thought that came through. You know, there's the shame of not having, but there's also shame in claiming that I want it. Yes. Even putting into words, I want to be a millionaire makes you feel like you have to apologize or justify or explain it, or you know, there's okay, but when I say one millionaire, for me, I'm like, yeah, I want that shit.

SPEAKER_05: 28:33

And you're like, you know, it's just so interesting, just like the difference. But that's not true.

SPEAKER_06: 28:40

You want it to be in too, Jess?

SPEAKER_03: 28:42

Yeah, no, I want to, I want to be in it. I'm just, I'm just realizing there's this undercurrent of yes, I want it, and I know why I want it, but the perception or how does it make other people feel, or what does that say about me is also lurking there somewhere. Uh yes.

SPEAKER_05: 28:59

We're getting in this text thread if it's the last thing we do. I've never wanted to belong so bad to this text thread. Speaking of belonging, please.

SPEAKER_06: 29:13

I mean, isn't it so fun? Like, isn't this energy fun? Could you imagine talking to people like this about money? Does it feel fun and light and good? And you could be like, oh my God, y'all, I had my million-dollar year. You'd be like, hi five, good girl. You know, like that's the way it gets to be. It actually gets to be that simple. It really gets to be that simple that we start celebrating that we want money, that we desire, you know, we get to start encouraging each other. And it just also gets to become normal.

SPEAKER_07: 29:51

But how do we do that?

SPEAKER_03: 29:57

We all be away. And how do we disinvest? Entangle from those belief systems, or if we did grow up with scarcity, or if we did grow up without that literacy, and there's all this subconscious conditioning around it, how do you begin to unravel those threads in order to actually believe it's possible?

SPEAKER_06: 30:16

Yeah, so you start somewhere, right? I know Jess, you're saying this was my story. This is everybody's story. Everybody has grown up in scarcity in some way, shape, or form. My father, he grew up in India in a village with no shoes and one outfit and walked to school for a mile every single day with no shoes. I heard this story all the time. I had to finish the food in my plate because someone across the world didn't have food, and that used to be him. And that could have been me, right? That could have also been me. This is my story, right? So the scarcity stories all exist. The subconscious thread exists, but it's so specific to everyone. That's why you have to start somewhere. And there's no financial literacy. There was none. I mean, not in the US. There was nothing. And actually, we live in a society. We live in a society that thrives on people being chained to consumerism. There is a great animation docu short thing called The Story of Stuff. And it is phenomenal if anybody wants to take a watch. And it really talks about the literal wheel that we have been placed in to just work, feel bad about ourselves, spend money, go work more to pay for the things we bought. And it's a cycle. And then that stuff just goes to a landfill. So her focus is a lot about consumerism. But why do we have a system so based on debt? Debt will shackle you. That is what it is meant to do. It is doing its job. We get to open our eyes to that. So that's the first thing. The second thing is you're not alone and understanding that you're not, and then taking the first step for you. So I want to get to your how. When we're getting honest about, okay, we know that we're already up against a whole system that wants to keep us in a certain place in a certain way. The next thing is to get honest about our own stories, our own money stories. And something really important that every person can do is starting to understand what is my pattern when it comes to money and wealth. I'm going to share two things. One is relationship and one is the pattern. So everybody has a pattern. The pattern is typically learned. Okay. So if you think back to what your family story was, I'll give one example. Was it feast or famine? I'm thinking about this one client, this beautiful client I had. And when she was growing up, her family didn't have steady income. They would have these gigs and then they would have money, and then that was enough at the time, and then they would have these periods of famine. So that's how she had been living her whole life feast and famine. Some people may have been good for a long time, and then all of a sudden something happened in their life, the shoe dropped, and everything went away. And so they live their life always believing that the shoe is going to drop. So there's different patterns. And when you can identify what your pattern is, you'll start to see this energetic wealth sphere that you live in. For me, I lived in a home where my parents constantly fought about money because they just did not have enough money. They were just trying to put food on the table. But what added an extra layer is I shared about my dad coming from a village, but my mom grew up with so much wealth. She lived in a beautiful home with a courtyard and servants. And her father was the director of agriculture in this one state in India. They went to a Catholic school. They were very privileged. But he was murdered when she was 15 years old. She knew she had to do whatever it took to make sure they were taken care of. And as every daughter got old enough, they were married off, married off, married off. And my dad seemed like a great suitor because he had come to America. But their upbringings were completely different. That came into my household as a child, and that created this weird energy in me where I can really hold well, but I can't. Like I feel bad about it. I feel shame about it.

SPEAKER_03: 34:58

So interesting because both of their stories carry so much pain, even though they came from such different circumstances. Yes. So no matter whether you're wealthy or you have scarcity, there's still pain that we associate with money in various ways.

SPEAKER_06: 35:14

Yeah. And so they, you know, they would fight about it and they it would just it caused me to feel like, well, I never want to worry about money. Then I spent my whole life being like, well, I'm just gonna set everything up, and here's all my spreadsheets, and I'm gonna do this thing. And, you know, it manifests so differently for every single person. So when you can identify your pattern, and I'm curious if anything came up for either of you, when you can identify that pattern, then you can start to change the story.

SPEAKER_03: 35:44

I'm curious for you though, because I know that you just said that you had this pattern of like, I can hold it, but I can't. But then you said, so I wanted to have ease with it and freedom, and I did all these things. But there must have been something in between there that you learned, or what was it that you needed to develop or shift in order to make a completely different approach possible for you?

SPEAKER_06: 36:06

So for me personally, in my journey, what shifted it for me was believing that I could treat myself like a VIP, that I could actually spend on myself, that I could invest in things because I did things even though I was doing the right financial things, quote unquote, like I was doing the right financial things. I was living in a scarcity that I couldn't spend on myself. It was always like save, save, save, save, say, don't do anything, don't buy anything. For me, realizing that I can treat myself like a VIP, that I can spend on myself was absolutely earth-shattering. And there were actually a lot of steps in between. I know you're asking for that thing, but this is why I'm saying you have to start by knowing what it is for you because I needed to start spending on myself. I needed to start believing that I was taken care of outside of what was in a spreadsheet. I needed to believe that if I wanted something, I could have it. And I didn't actually believe that for myself. It was it's so much.

SPEAKER_05: 37:20

Oh my gosh, tell me. Well, it's been such a pendulum. And I wouldn't say that I never spent on myself, but I was always really safe and calculated and responsible. Certain percentages went here and certain percentages went here. And I looked at it, I was very responsible. And there was no excessiveness, there was no unconscious spending. Like it was very calculated. And then I became a mom and I merged finances. And my husband comes from a very different background to me. And I remember when I started to like spend more money on myself. I think I swung the pendulum kind of far in the other direction, to be honest, when I got into like personal growth. I do too. I do too. What if I wanted a whole new wardrobe? What if I did that? So I started to spend a lot on myself. And then I was like, you don't get to tell me that I can't spend on myself. I get to spend on my, you know, but the pendulum went like way in the other direction. And so there is this middle ground that I have never had training in. We'll just call it experience training. That is both yes and yes, set it aside, be responsible, look at the things, but also like be a VIP. So I think the pendulum swinging somewhere back in the middle is kind of what's actually been happening in my life and that part of the lesson that I'm learning. But as you were talking, I was like, ooh, this really resonates. And being able to like, yeah, live in both worlds where treating yourself like a VIP doesn't mean you're irresponsible or unconscious about it. It's like you're actually just doing nice things for yourself.

SPEAKER_06: 39:03

Yeah. Yeah. It is. I mean, just I keep thinking about your question too, about the how, you know, and it's like I I am an engineer. So I'm like, I'm a problem solver. What is the answer? What is the answer? Something has to shift. And I really believe that at the core is knowing your patterns, believing that you're worthy of having money until you believe that you are worthy of it. Then things start from there and has to start from that belief shifting, along with the tactical things too. But knowing that pattern is really important because breaking that will affect you in all parts of your life.

SPEAKER_03: 39:40

I really like that you have made the energetics of money an individual thing, if that makes sense. Because I think when people talk about the energy of money, what we leave out is that can be such a personal relationship. Is it because of the story that we project onto it? Is that Yes, I think it's that.

SPEAKER_06: 39:59

That's where again, let's go back to the neutrality. You know, I think that if we can just look at money as neutral, it will take a lot of things off. But if it is reflecting back something to you, then look at that. What is it reflecting back? That's why identifying the pattern is important. Let me tell you the relationship piece too. So we do put a lot onto money. And if we liken money to a relationship, okay. So you can think of it as a lover, a friend, or an enemy, right? It can be really anything, but looking at your relationship with money as though it was an entity. So if money was an entity, and I always do this for money, I don't know.

SPEAKER_05: 40:40

My money is like a sexy bitch. Yeah. I don't know. I'm like curvy, sexy bitch. Jessica Rabbit. Oh, we should all get like little Jessica Rabbit things for our desks and be like, this is my money sexy bit.

unknown: 40:59

I know.

SPEAKER_06: 41:00

My sexy bit time. Because I'm always doing this every time I talk about your relationship, the entity of money. So I'm picturing Jessica Rabbit like unfolding between your hands. So when you look at money as an entity, so right now, if each of you thought of money as an entity, okay?

SPEAKER_02: 41:18

Yeah, oh, I like it. Okay.

SPEAKER_06: 41:21

We take this stuff seriously. Yeah. I love this. So if you think of money as an entity today, okay, without any judgment, what is your relationship with money? And oh, Jess already knows. I'll give some examples in case somebody is like, well, what does that mean? So is your relationship with money controlling? Is it fearful? Is it uh oh god, I'm just gonna put my head in the sand, I don't want to look. Is it uh unhealthy? Is it I can't even think. I've given some examples now. So I'd love to hear from both of you. What is your relationship with mine? Mixed messagey, a little confused.

SPEAKER_05: 42:11

Mine, mine I saw like a giant, was like a big golden tower far away from me. So what I what I felt was like outside of me.

SPEAKER_06: 42:21

Ooh, and far away. Okay.

SPEAKER_05: 42:25

Okay, Jess, coming back to you. Melissa gave a little side lip twitch. Don't judge me, Jessica Rabbit.

SPEAKER_06: 42:33

Jessica Roberts coming for you. Okay.

SPEAKER_05: 42:36

And can I say one other thing about that? Because we already brought up politics. So I'm gonna bring up religion real quick. It almost feels to me like when I used to believe that religion, God, spirit was like a man in the sky in the cloud out here. And then I had to bring it in here. It actually felt almost like the same energetics of bringing spirit into soul, bringing money into the body. It felt very similar to me.

SPEAKER_06: 43:01

And when you thought about money as an entity, honestly, it was that, right? The far away, the thing over there, the thing that you'll get later. Oh my gosh. Yes. Okay. Okay. And Jess, you said mixed messagey.

SPEAKER_03: 43:14

Tell me about that. I think because I would say that some of the deepest lessons of the last few years around money for me have been around receiving. Like really believing I deserve and receiving and also trusting that it's there, that it's available, and I've been tested in that over and over again, but it always shows up. And then there's this other side where, in reaction, I think, to certain aspects of my childhood, I tend to be overly generous and overcompensate for certain feelings of scarcity with indulgence at times. Um, and then there's another aspect of being avoidant of the literacy around it. So I think there's all of these things happening simultaneously. And I'm like, well, that's all over the place. You know, there isn't really one clear, consistent, healthy dynamic going on.

SPEAKER_06: 44:13

Yeah. And and imagine for both of you, if it was an actual person, let's say it was a lover relationship and you're thinking about what just came up for both of you. Is that the relationship that you would want to be in?

SPEAKER_03: 44:25

No, but I feel like the problem is on my end.

unknown: 44:29

You know?

SPEAKER_03: 44:30

Well, like, why don't I know my role in the relationship? You're being so hard on yourself.

SPEAKER_05: 44:37

You had a thumbs up bubble in the meantime.

SPEAKER_06: 44:40

But did you give the thumbs up? Where's the thumbs up coming from?

SPEAKER_05: 44:42

No, I just didn't. It just showed up.

SPEAKER_03: 44:46

It's such an interesting universe to reflect that I'm being hard on myself because I think this is the one area where I am. Yeah. I can't even think of another area where I still feel that kind of tension.

SPEAKER_06: 44:59

And so that's something to explore. Because even when I'm like, if you were to think about that as a relationship, if you were with, let's say, like you were with a partner that you kind of just always felt a little bit weird around, right? Like a little bit uncomfortable. Like I can't really say the thing, right? Like you want to have the conversation, but you can't. Um, you're okay when they give you stuff, but then you feel like you've got to give it away. Do you see like how if this was in a relationship with the person, like that's the energy I'm feeling? Is that like kind of the way that you feel? Yeah, I hear what you're saying. For sure. I hear what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. Start to actually think about it as an entity, as a person now. Like now bring it to a person. So if Melissa, for you, if you think of this faraway tower as a person, what is that relationship that you're in with that person?

SPEAKER_05: 45:52

Yeah, it's like inaccessible, hard to get to, not mine. Those are kind of the main things outside of me. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06: 46:04

And if that's a person and they're inaccessible and hard to get to, what are you wanting with them? Are you like trying to be like, but look at me over here? Or you're like, oh, I can't even talk to them. What's happening in your relationship with that person?

SPEAKER_05: 46:19

It's like getting to you feels like so much work. Feels so overwhelming. It feels like a lot of time, attention. It feels like you are gonna need a lot from me, and I don't have that to give. And so then you don't give it. Or I'm like, next week we'll look at these things. And I'm starting to do more of it. Like I, you know, I hired a bookkeeper and I ops person is making me look at it because I'm t telling her to make me look at it. But it was like when I had the shift into a new season around it of more output, I was like, I'm doing something wrong, even though I'm not. And I don't want to look at it because it feels shamey.

SPEAKER_06: 47:06

Okay. So isn't it interesting to think about money as an entity and as a person and as a relationship, what it is currently. And what you can do with that, I'll just add mine to the mix too. For me, mine was controlling. I was trying to control all the time. If I just controlled you, then we're gonna do this together. But I wanted to be this power couple with money. And money was literally being crushed under me, right? Until I let go. So then what you can do is you can start thinking about what relationship you want. A beautiful thing to do is to write a letter. Write a letter to money. Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 47:48

I want you to come back and we all read letters to each other.

SPEAKER_06: 47:51

Oh my gosh, we'll share my letter. It's so interesting. So yeah, write a letter to money, to the current relationship. Because one thing that's really important is that you can't live in a place where you're pretending anything. So it's not about like, well, tell me what the best way to think is about money. No, no, no, no, no. You're gonna be so honest. You already said your relationship now. And that's beautiful because you got really honest. You're gonna write that letter to that current relationship and then let money know what is the new relationship I would like with you? What would I like it to be? Because this isn't working for either of us.

SPEAKER_05: 48:29

I feel like I need to do this with my husband too.

SPEAKER_03: 48:34

You know what's so interesting to me is we've been doing this podcast now for a while, and we have had some hella vulnerable conversations going into the crevices of our soul. And this is the most vulnerable I've ever felt. Oh.

SPEAKER_05: 48:50

Isn't that interesting? Interesting, isn't it? Interesting. Well, it's not I I'm thinking of even just the conversation we had about sexuality on one of one of the conversations we had. And when you're talking, I know there's a lot of like tactical hows, but there's so much power like in getting, I'm beating the dead horse around community all the time. But when we can talk about things that feel so shameful, so taboo, it becomes normal. You're not judged, it gets neutralized, and you can do this on a regular basis inside of a community. It's how we shift it. Because, you know, the first time you have the conversation feels like shit in your body, and then you don't die, and then you have it again and you have it again and you have it again, and eventually you have power. You're in a totally new relationship with it, but it has to establish that safety around it.

SPEAKER_07: 49:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 49:44

And that's why when we don't can't talk about it, don't talk about it, aren't allowed to talk about it, we can never transmute it. You can't because it's like shoved in a like I think Beth called it like a critter over here in a closet. It's like put that critter in the closet and don't look at it. Yeah. So it's just fascinating to me. And when I look at every area of my life that I used to feel like shit about, and now I'm totally open about it. The difference has been open, vulnerable conversations on a consistent basis with people who are safe who can hold it with me. Agreed.

unknown: 50:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 50:16

Everybody join the Nova. Just kidding.

SPEAKER_06: 50:18

Yes. Do you join the Nova? Why are you?

SPEAKER_05: 50:21

That is a total yes. Right. But that's the power, and it's all of them. You know, I was talking with Jazzy the other day. Like, what are all the conversations that women want to be having that we're not having or we're not allowed to have, or it's shameful you're not supposed to talk about that, including religion, including politics, money, sexuality, including all these things, because that's how we stay out of our power around all of them. Yes. And I'm so glad you're talking about it, Jess.

SPEAKER_03: 50:48

Me too. Yeah. But I think it says something about how we all have so much personal attachment and meaning that we've given it. And for many of us, it's felt like it's held power over us at various times in our lives and it's so embedded in the patriarchy. Like I just think it's a really big, deep topic, but it doesn't seem like it would be because it's just money. Like it's just it, you know, and yet it holds a lot of meaning in our lives, right?

SPEAKER_06: 51:16

It does, yeah. And I'll I'll tell you something just on the inside is now, I work with so many women at all levels. And it's so interesting to meet the consistency between the feelings of shame and feeling alone and feeling like I'm the only one. And oh my God, I'm like, I'm gonna tell you this, but don't tell anyone. And sometimes I want to be like if we were just all open about it, we're all kind of feeling the same way, and in a very like our own unique blend of things. Money is so interesting in that what I've learned over time with my wealth coaching is that originally it started because I had some entrepreneur friends who just needed help with what do I do with my money and increase my profit and things. And I was like, oh, okay, let's sit with this spreadsheet. And we would do all that. But as I started talking to each of them, what started coming out was the underlying belief and allowing them to see that money is neutral, that you're doing a lot better than you think. I want to tell you, you really are, because no one's gonna tell you that, but I know it. After seeing so many women's like literal finances, you're doing a lot better than you think. You're so much closer than you think. And also ultimately, the work is the beliefs, it is the energetics. But it doesn't take a lot. It doesn't take a lot to do the work. It's about looking at it head on, being honest about it. Write this letter. This is a great exercise. Start that path and don't go at it alone. Find a community like the Nova where you can talk about it. Come to somebody trusted like myself, or find somebody in your life that you can talk to about it. But you get to be wealthy. You just do, period. And the money aspect is actually one of the easiest things to work on, even though it feels like, uh, you know, once you do break through that, yes, things change across the board.

SPEAKER_03: 53:19

Thank you, Shazia. I'm so happy that you came back. And I know that we have to wrap up, but yeah, just one tiny little question before you go, just to circle back. What are you finding in the quiet?

SPEAKER_06: 53:32

Oh my gosh, Jessie, you asked such good questions. Oh, gosh. You know, what I'm finding in the quiet is that I'm really good where I'm at, and I get to accept it. I've had a lifelong journey of a lot of hardship, which I know a lot of people have had. And I've actually found that it's been harder for me to accept and lean into the goodness and the greatness and the celebration of my life. That has been more challenging for me than to actually be worried about the things that are not going well. And so in the quiet, I've been spending a lot of time being like, I'm good. And I'm present to it.

SPEAKER_03: 54:22

Thank you, Shassia.

SPEAKER_05: 54:25

I love you, Shazia.

SPEAKER_06: 54:27

I'd love you guys to come back and we'll read our letters. We should do a letter reading. Maybe we'll do something at Nova.

SPEAKER_05: 54:34

Well, I have some ideas, Brewing, for the ush. I am on the same page with you. All right. Thank you.