UNKNOWN: 0:00

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04: 0:02

To even question what you've been told is true is incredibly courageous. It doesn't always feel like courage what looks like courage to other people. For me, it feels like survival. This is our personal medicine.

SPEAKER_00: 0:15

If I'm surrounded by thinkers, by lovers, by passion, by integrity, then I really do think that I know who I am.

SPEAKER_05: 0:21

There is a peace that is indescribable when you're being who you are and you're living your purpose. I'm not going to come to the end of my life and be like, I didn't live the life I was meant to live.

SPEAKER_03: 0:30

Can I be so comfortable in the idea This is the

SPEAKER_06: 0:39

Inner Rebel Podcast.

SPEAKER_03: 0:50

I mean, you're making me think

SPEAKER_06: 0:51

I should do all these podcasts standing up. Well, what's funny is I have the ability to do that and I never stand up at my desk and it's so dumb. But I have a thing that raises up and down, but I always choose to sit.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02

We're stacking performance right now. We were listening to 528 frequency. We're standing. We're drinking structured water. We're doing it.

SPEAKER_06: 1:09

I'm just crushing my hip flexors instead. Let's go. All right. I'm already taking notes. And he's always perfect at his execution of all of his performance things at every moment.

SPEAKER_01: 1:19

I'm definitely not perfect. I I'm just kidding. I'm totally kidding. Maybe we'll talk about my shadow side in this podcast.

SPEAKER_06: 1:24

Most likely. Most likely.

SPEAKER_01: 1:26

Let's go.

SPEAKER_06: 1:26

I'm Jessica, by the way. Hi. Oh, yeah. And this is Jessica. Hi, nice to meet you.

SPEAKER_01: 1:31

My name's Jeff. It's nice to meet you.

SPEAKER_06: 1:33

Thank you so much for being here, Jeff. And welcome, everyone, to Inner Rebel. I'm really excited to get to dig in with you today. We have Jeff Salzenstein today on our podcast. He's a former top 100 world-ranked tennis player. And not to brag, but I won so big in my 2-5 tennis league last night, and I thought it's probably the same level to what you were playing, just to add a little promo to my tennis skills.

SPEAKER_01: 1:59

Similar level. You also have a decision on which way you want to go with this, so I have a quick story. Okay. I was playing on the tour. They would start the match, and they would say Salzenstein to serve. And then by 2-all in the first set, it would be Salzenstein, three games to two. And then by the end of the first set, it was Salzenstein for set. Did I say it wrong? It was Salzensteig Sandwichburg. And so for my entire life... Oh, we'll go with that one. My last name has been butchered. And if I'm going to go out in the world and dominate and do all these big, cool things, I got to make sure everybody knows how to say my name.

SPEAKER_06: 2:38

Okay. I should have asked you before. How do you say your last name and why did I say it wrong? I

SPEAKER_01: 2:43

think you said Salzenstein. And it's Salzenstein. Salzenstein. Instead of Sal. Yeah, like salt. Like salt and pepper. You know what? That's

SPEAKER_06: 2:53

my Ohio coming out.

SPEAKER_01: 2:55

Salzenstein. Exactly. Salzenstein. Oh, my gosh. You said Stein. You went Stein on me. And Stein is when I go to Germany. And you know Salzenstein. And I know it,

SPEAKER_06: 3:06

too. And I'm sorry. I'm sweating now.

SPEAKER_01: 3:08

It's okay. I know.

SPEAKER_06: 3:09

Oh, not again. I'm sweating again. My office is also

SPEAKER_01: 3:12

hot. Hey, when I get called up, when I get called out on stages, like when I do the keynotes, I sometimes forget. And then they just completely butcher it. And then I forget. I usually just have to run with it because I don't want to call out the CEO that's just announced me in front of 300 people. But I'm like, man. But Salzenstein means salt, zen. There's some zen in there, which we're going to get into some zen today. And then steen is stone. So it's salt stone is what my name actually means.

SPEAKER_06: 3:41

I love that, Mr. Salzenstein. Let me try again. You nailed it. I nailed it. Here we go. You nailed it. it. There we go. If we cut this out, then no one's going to know about my 2-5 tennis. Okay, let's... I'm just kidding. We will probably leave this in. I know we'll leave it in because this is real life. I mean, let's do it. We're humans, right? My sincerest apology for being not on my game. It's okay. I get to talk about

SPEAKER_01: 4:08

the umpire story.

SPEAKER_06: 4:09

What was the Sulzenberger? What was that one?

SPEAKER_01: 4:12

No, what I'm saying is by the end of a tennis match, announcers would get it right at the beginning, and then by the end, they had changed it, like three or four iterations. That's so

SPEAKER_06: 4:21

weird. They were second guessing themselves back there. Like one of these is going to be right.

SPEAKER_01: 4:25

I have friends from college that call me Saul's and Steak Sandwichburg. Like literally that's the joke is that my name just becomes like a buffet of weird things.

SPEAKER_06: 4:34

It's like a game of telephone. Well, you were a former top 100 world ranked tennis player, two-time Stanford All-American and national champion who now helps leaders and teams unlock excellence and thrive under pressure, which I'm feeling in the moment. Without cracking like a cheap tennis racket. As a leadership seeker and executive performance coach, Jeff uses his own YourZone framework to help high achievers build resilience and optimize performance and well-being. He lives in Denver, Colorado. Yay, Colorado. Plays pickleball. Oh, that could be a whole conversation for tennis players. Yeah, despite being judged by his tennis buddies and spends his hard-earned money at Whole Foods, probably in Cherry Creek. He's an avid Nuggets fan with a man crush. Oh. and takes full credit for the Denver Broncos Super Bowl victories. That's bold. Why? Because the Broncos are undefeated in the Super Bowls that you have attended. Well, you should start coming to all my two five tennis matches then and take credit for that. You'll win. I'm so happy that you're here. Thank you for being here and for calling me out. Permission to always do that. We're really, oh my goodness. Well, we love to start all of our conversations with one question because we're called Inner Rebel. We're curious what your relationship is with your Inner Rebel. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 5:51

When I was 28 years old, I had been playing pro tennis for six years. I had come back from two career-threatening injuries to my ankle and knee. I'm sure we can lean into that at some point. And I was desperate to break the top 100 in the world. I hadn't done it yet. I had seen that these two players that had just turned pro within a year, they were top 100. I was frustrated. So I found this coach in Atlanta, Georgia, who had helped these two players get there. And ironically enough, I started working with this coach for about six months and he wasn't the right fit for me. Then another guy said, hey, you should go a couple miles down the road and work with this other coach. He's this quirky Irish guy and his name is Joseph O'Dwyer. He's from Dublin, Ireland. He's just such a cool character. So I show up on this guy's court and he's playing YouTube, layering it on the boombox back in the, I don't know, what year was it? Yeah, it was like 2001. I think they still had a version of a boombox back then. And he's playing it on the court. He's playing, you know, where the Streets have no name. And he's like, hey, mate, how you doing? And he comes, he's got this sword and he takes this sword and he puts it like William Wallace from Braveheart into the clay court. And I'm like, who the F is this guy? Where did he come from? Because I'm used to having the tennis courts, the coaches that are cerebral and analytical and all whites and tucked in. And this guy is the opposite of that, right? He's a rebel, total rebel. And so I start working with this guy and he shows me a shot called the buggy whip forehand. It's a shot that Rafan of doll made famous if you follow tennis and you know Raphael. But the buggy whip forehand involves like swinging your forehand, your hand, I'm doing it lefty because I'm a lefty, above your head instead of over your shoulder. And he showed me a couple of other tricks. But what Joseph O'Dwyer helped me the most with was opening up my mind to be different, to dare to be different, to be a rebel. I already had the rebel inside of me and I was already doing a lot of out of the box stuff, but he gave me permission. He gave me permission and he started calling me secret After the book, Jonathan Livingston Segal, the seagull that does not follow the flock and he dive bombs and he tries stuff and it doesn't always work, but he's just stays true to his nature. When he met me, he's like, you're the seagull. He's like, I see you, the seagull. So it's almost like he just opened up this Pandora's box of rebellion of like, just fricking go be you and go do you and do weird, quirky things. And so that was a pivotal moment in my life when I met Joseph. He was the coach that helped me break the top hundred in the world because I was like, because I was able to tap into my inner seagull and my inner rebel.

SPEAKER_03: 8:23

I love that. What was it about accessing your inner rebel at that time that you think then helped launch you into the top 100?

SPEAKER_01: 8:32

Well, what a lot of this was about was, I mentioned it earlier, I am left-handed. And left-handed people are notorious for being artistic, creative, kind of genius types, a little bit quirky. And yet, you know, God bless my family, I was raised by a bunch of right- You know, cerebral, in the head, analytical, go through the school system. Damn right handers. become an adult. I'm starting to act more like an adult or think about these things. And he showed me stages around getting out of my head and into my heart and to play with more heart and to play with my hand. Before it was called tennis, the French called it jeu de paume. And jeu de paume means handball or play with the hand. And where a lot of coaches were teaching me, you know, turn your shoulders, bend your knees, watch the ball, like all the things you hear from the coach down the street that's working with two fives and three O's. This guy, was like, you got to play with your hand. You need to loosen your grip. You need to visualize exactly where you want the ball to go every time. And he was just so artistic and different in that way. And it just opened up this whole thing for me to play the game from a more visual and kinesthetic perspective rather than overanalyzing, which is a metaphor for life, right? Like, can we play more with vision? Can we play more with our feel and our intuition instead of that rote, analytical, mind-based approach?

SPEAKER_06: 10:19

Before you joined, Jess was asking me how we met. And I told her, you know, how we met at the networking event that you spoke at, but that the thing that really stood out to me was, obviously, you have to be very devoted to your whatever it is, if you're going to be top 100 in the world of anything. And I really appreciated that you brought in these elements that aren't as rigid, they are more flowy, they are intuitive, they do bring in the nervous system. And I I was listening to one of your other interviews and you spoke to that too. I think he asked you, what does high performance mean to you or something to that effect? And you were talking about it not being rigid. I like the term devotion. To me, devotion feels more, well, I would use the term feminine. Devotion is like a softer, more holistic approach to I think the same idea. So how do you bring in these softer qualities? How do you bring in like the whole picture to performance?

SPEAKER_01: 11:18

Well, my perspective on it. I think I know how I do it, but my perspective on it is that I look at my life and I look at my tennis career, you know, getting to a hundred in the world at age 30. And when I share that with people, sometimes they're like, wow, that's amazing. And other times that they're like, I don't even know what top hundred means like in tennis. I don't follow tennis, but you know, in the context, I think there's 60 million people that play tennis worldwide. And in the NBA, you have 32 teams that have 12 players on a team. So there's 350 NBA basketball players. And there's multiple leagues in Europe and in Asian and football. There's thousands like top hundred in the world is kind of crazy. And now when I actually talk about it, I say, let me give you a little more context. I shared the court with Pete Sampras and Roger Federer and Andy Roddick. Like people don't know me that didn't follow tennis, but I literally was on the court with these guys and got to see their greatness and what they did as, as athletes and performers. It's my long way of kind of setting context before I get to the answer. My body was breaking down at the age of 24 after I played Michael Chang at the US Open in front of 24,000 people. And my body started breaking down after that. And I didn't know if I was ever going to play tennis again. I guess I had this sixth sense of like, it's not just about going to the doctor and having them fix your ankle. Like there's more. Like I have these limiting beliefs and I have these uncomfortable feelings and I don't really know what to do with it. And so at 24 years old, going to my first yoga class, and starting to eat organic food. And it was very holistic of like, I just don't buy into the traditional way that things are done and what we're being sold out in the world. And so it started very early and I was my own guinea pig and my own lab rat. I tried all these crazy things and some of it stuck and most of it didn't. And I failed a lot and I kind of look like an idiot at times. But I guess I had courage and the willingness to approach performance from a perspective that wasn't just about winning. I mean, listen, if If I woke up every day thinking, and when I was playing pro tennis, If I can just get to top 10 in the world and make$10 million, I might have done that. But there was something about me that was more interested in the path and the learning and the process than making the money in the rankings. I guess I had this sense that that wasn't ultimately going to fulfill me. And so what I've learned is that for leaders and high achievers in the world outside of sport, I mean, it happens now and it's happened in the past. We can build a big company and we can sell it for a gazillion dollars. and then we can wake up one day and go, what the heck was I doing? What was this all for? And the same thing happens in tennis. Like you play for 10 years and you get to 40 in the world and you beat all these players and you made a bunch of money and you put it in the bank, which didn't happen for me, but it's another story. And then you wake up and you're like, I'm not even happy. And so I think this performance concept now in this world we're moving into is to address the whole picture and the soft skills, because the soft skills are pointing to, they're actually hard skills. They're They're actually, they improve performance. They make us better. They integrate what we do in our lives. And the integration of the masculine and the feminine is so key. And we know a lot of that's not balanced in the world. And so I think my part, and I think that's what you picked up on, Melissa, when I did my talk, my part in all of this is to keep walking that path for myself and then to share what I'm learning with others and do it in an integrated way without it being too out there and too hokey. I'm not going to show up, no judgment, but I'm not going to show up with a bunch of mala beads and say, I just came from the Himalayas. I'm going to show up in the nice suit and packaged, you know, as that former athlete guy. But underneath it, there's a lot of digging to do around how we can train our nervous system, how we can get into our bodies more and do the somatic work and merge the feminine and the masculine.

SPEAKER_03: 15:10

You shared so much about how you discovered your inner rebel and the person who helped bring it out in you and how that fed into your career. And now you find yourself in a different line of work. you've pivoted and we'll talk about that, but you are in a completely different place in your life. And I imagine a lot of what you learned then has been integrated in a new way into present Jeff. So what is your relationship currently with your inner rebel?

SPEAKER_01: 15:38

When I think about my inner rebel today in this moment, he's being challenged now. I don't know if we ever arrive or fully, I mean, maybe some people fully live into their inner rebel, like 10 out of 10, 11 out of 10. But what I've identified recently is that we have parts of ourselves and in many ways, multiple personalities. There's a part of me that is very rebellious, a huge risk taker in certain ways. At least that's the perception to the outside world. To me, it feels very natural to do some of the things that I do.

SPEAKER_02: 16:12

I've

SPEAKER_01: 16:13

also identified there's still places where I play it safe. There's places where there's more edges of me to bump up against around my inner rebel. I think the challenge that I have around the inner rebel is that I was always the kid, for the most part, followed the rules and did the right things. And so I think that part of me still plays in the playground with the inner rebel. So there's a conflict, you know, especially in the world that we live in, the 3D world of like how many of us experience like staying in this box of like how the world works. And we just want to get out of the box. And I have been. I've broken out of the box. And yet, I still feel like there are places where I'm playing where it's too safe. And I noticed that, especially with the work that I have done on myself and the work that I do with others, you know, I notice it in my body. Really intense sensations in my body. And then my mind, because I'm human, my mind can create all different types of stories and make meaning out of it. So that was a pretty abstract answer. But The short of it would be that my relationship with my inner rebel is that I'm still taking chances. I'm still out there doing it. And I also see where I'm playing it safe.

SPEAKER_03: 17:34

That doesn't sound abstract at all to me. That sounds so human. And I love that you spoke into how you can feel it speaking through your body, that when we are going against ourselves in some way or inauthentic in some way, that we do have these clues that you can feel and then our minds will override it and try to talk ourselves out of it. I'm wondering if you're willing to speak into some of the specific areas that you find, what would we call the opposite of the inner rebel? I guess the playing it safe, Jeff, is the loudest or is the most uncomfortable in breaking free.

SPEAKER_01: 18:14

Yeah, there's this huge push out there, especially in the Instagram world. Everybody is getting in the cold tubs. Like if you're not doing 42 degrees every single day, you just aren't good enough.

SPEAKER_03: 18:31

Jeff, I think you're fine.

SPEAKER_01: 18:32

You're just not good enough. You're not burning enough brown fat. You're clearly not courageous enough if you are not in a cold tub at 42 degrees. Yeah. So my edge, my edge would be, I play it safe by like, I don't really want to get in a cold tub. Like I can do the cold shower or like I want to hack it. I don't really want to spend five minutes in a cold tub at 42. And especially again, the justification, you had no idea I was going to go there. Did you?

SPEAKER_06: 19:02

No, I thought you were going to go like really vulnerable.

SPEAKER_01: 19:04

This is vulnerable. This is vulnerable. Like I've gone down rabbit holes around health and I realized that I justify not doing things because I can find a reason why I shouldn't so like with the cold tubs a couple things I think I know to be true is that many of us are running around in fight or flight ramped up on cortisol and coffee and maybe not enough sleep and we're going going going and then we're jumping into a cold tub to freak our nervous system out even more like I feel like my nervous system is already like at an edge right now even in this season of my life and I don't know if a cold tub is the thing that I need to regulate my nervous system. So there's a story in my head that I'm playing it safe by not wanting to get cold. There's another story in my head that part of me wants to jump out of a plane, but another part of me is like, I don't know. I don't really have an interest in rock climbing. So I think it's like the extreme things I play safe on. The really extreme things. And then if I'm maybe not as successful in certain areas or not getting what I want, then I start thinking, well, maybe I should be like cold tubbing and like jumping out of planes and doing all these things in order to have more courage. It's confusing sometimes for this brain of mine.

SPEAKER_03: 20:21

I have a question then, because I think what is really interesting about this, and this comes up with clients of mine a lot, is how do you navigate the difference between fear that is meant to be moved through in order to free yourself and be your authentic self and your intuition keeping you safe? What What if you're just not meant to jump out of a plane? Like, how would you be able to tell the difference

SPEAKER_01: 20:48

between those two things? It's definitely something I've got to be looking at. And what I can tell you is that probably just need to like go do it with somebody. Doing those things on my own doesn't sound as fun as doing it with someone. And yet still, I'm like, I don't know if I want to do these crazy extreme things. So that's where I played safe.

SPEAKER_06: 21:31

I want to tie this into when we make choices, they're often tied to our greater values. And what I'm actually hearing you speak to is I have a value of courage, right? I have a value of bravery. And perhaps you have a value of even community in that of I'd rather do it with somebody else than just do it to do it. And maybe there's another value in there of, I don't know how to name it, but there's something around just like an honoring of yourself. And so it's not really about the cold plunge or the airplane. It's really about your performance coach. Do we just identify forever? I am a top 100 athlete in the world in tennis. And so as a top performer, you're always looking at what is my edge to get to my goal? What is my edge? So I'm going to make this mean something deeper around your ultimate goal, which would be what? So if you're looking at these things that seem maybe trivial on the surface where we were giggling about cold plunging, ultimately cold plunging is something that people really do use for performance. And so if we take a step deeper, when you're looking at performance, when you're What are your edges around those? And am I making a correct assumption that those are the values that we're actually talking about when you're thinking of planes and cold plunging and rock climbing and-

SPEAKER_01: 22:53

Getting back to the cold plunge when you said 52 degrees, I think Huberman and somebody else says that actually it's five minutes, three times a week at 50 to 52 degrees. That's the place I would play. And so to your point, it's like, are we just doing things to do them as a adrenaline rush or this makes me tougher or stronger? Are we actually doing it because it would help our well-being, our health, our performance?

SPEAKER_06: 23:23

Can I pause you in that sentence right there? What I hear is intention. We were talking about you being a seagull that flies outside of the flock. And so am I following the flock to follow the flock or am I taking an intentional action to honor my body, my path, my

SPEAKER_01: 23:42

I've showed courage that actually doesn't feel like courage to me. Like the things that we do naturally that people see in us as courageous or whatever the value is. I'm just like, this is just what I do. At 19 years old, I had the worst serve in college tennis. And instead of playing the tournaments and losing, I went back home and transformed my serve on my own. That requires openness, curiosity, and courage to say, you know what? I'm not going to follow the flock. I'm not going to follow the I'm actually going to go try to change this thing. And it worked. People would say that's maybe not so much courageous, but like a very unique thing to do. And then when you decide to play tennis professionally for 11 years and you do 70 to 80 percent of it on your own without a team and you're traveling everywhere and you're losing and you're sitting in hotel rooms and you're not really making a lot of money, but you stay in it for 11 years because that's your path. That's your journey. journey. That's your hero's journey. Most people would not do that. Most people would just be like, this is for the birds. I'm done. I'm going to move home. I'm going to get a job. I'm going to like, whatever the thing is, for some reason, that was the path I went on. And then to start an online tennis instruction business where there were like two or three people doing it at the time. And there wasn't Instagram and all the TikToks. It was just YouTube. And that was pretty new. To decide to be a speaker at Fort Like you hear these stories of people that started over at 45 or 50 or go on and founded Kentucky Fried Chicken or whatever they did to do those things, innovate, reinvent yourself, I think is courageous. And then it makes me also think to get to the next level of performance or the next level of success. Maybe that's what I'm talking about today is more cold plunging and more jumping out of planes because I haven't done those things. And I do find that sometimes I bump up against these plateaus and it's around nervous system regulation and limiting beliefs and I'm aware of that and I want to be thoughtful and intentional about the choices I make to free me up more.

SPEAKER_03: 25:55

What I love about this conversation is there's so much being sold to us all the time and how we evolve is a very personal journey to us and there's so much to navigate between our fears and our intuition and these psychological barriers that we bump up against and I think it is a very personal thing and I love that you're talking into feeling into those edges of oh I can feel that there's a block and having curiosity about that block and is that something that is just not right for me or is there a personal fear that is holding me back from this but there's physical risks like the ones you're speaking into and then there's emotional risks and I see you as someone who has obviously taken a lot of physical risks in your life as well but has taken many many emotional risks. Other people have no problem jumping out of planes but a lot of the things that you have embarked on in your life would be very very scary for those people. One of those things that I want to touch on is you transitioning out of tennis into the work that you do now and I know that there was a pivotal moment for you in that transition but it is a very vulnerable thing to leave behind a career that that you were so successful at and find a new path and transition through that new path. And I'm wondering if you wanna share a little bit about the emotional risks required of you at that

SPEAKER_01: 27:26

time. Yeah, I'm happy to. A lot of places we can go here. When I played pro tennis for 11 years, I got to 100 in the world at age 30. It took me seven years to do it. I had two career threatening injuries. I had a lot of injuries. Like I mentioned, I did a lot of things alone. I made a lot of mistakes Whether it was trying the wrong diet in the middle of the fifth largest tournament in the world, I decided to try some weird diet. I think a form of self-sabotage of some sort to make that decision in that moment. It's weird. But there came a moment in my early 30s when I just didn't want to get on planes anymore. And I was probably sad, probably grieving. I cried three times. One month before my last professional match, three different moments. One was with an ex-girlfriend after I lost a tennis match in California. another time was driving down to play this tournament where my father was going to come watch me play he was my first coach put the racket in my hand and I thought this is the last time in my mind and my body I felt like this is the last time he's ever going to see me play I felt that the third time was the coach Joseph O'Dwyer who called me Siegel he came to watch me play so I was almost going through this grieving process before I actually quit

SPEAKER_03: 28:36

did you know you were going to quit or did you just like your body was ahead

SPEAKER_01: 28:40

of you everything was ahead because I didn't know what to do because I didn't know how to quit. I didn't know how to walk away because what do you do when you've never had a real job and all you've done is tennis? And you hear these stories of athletes when they retire, they're lost. They may hit the drink. They may hit the drugs. They may do some destructive behaviors and they're lost in the next career. And more stories are like that than the success stories where people transition seamlessly. It's hard. It comes

SPEAKER_03: 29:10

from

SPEAKER_01: 29:10

identity. Yeah. I mean, I I mean, you play tennis since you were four and everyone looks at you as the all-American guy and they look up to you. And it's great. It gets you in the door. It gets people to respect you right away. But there is a feeling of not being able to live up to that and always having to be there. So I'm having a hard time quitting. And what's interesting, you mentioned the body. There was so much stress during that time that I manifested physical and mental challenges where I couldn't play. I was dizzy. And that lingered for about eight months, and I still had not officially retired because I didn't know what to do. I helped him find a rehab facility. I helped fund it. I moved back to Denver. I announced that I was a coach. And next thing you know, I was coaching tennis. And so it was interesting that it took a traumatic experience for me to go into my fixer mode and say, this is the thing that's going to get me out of this somehow because I didn't know how to get out of it on my own. And so as traumatic and painful as that experience was, it was the thing that led me to coaching. I always knew that I was going to coach, I think. I was studying tennis like a coach, but then that was just thrust upon me. And I realized quickly that I enjoyed coaching more than I enjoyed competing on the pro tour. And then he came to live with me after he went through rehab. And then he relapsed, went back to Florida. He started using drugs. He started dealing drugs. It was pretty messy. And then he ended up landing in prison and he transformed while he was in prison. It took him a while to get there. He had to hit his rock bottom. And my brother and I went on this incredible journey. Yeah. And so we hatched a plan. We created a customized coaching program. And thankfully, it was a virtual program. I didn't have to go to prison to work with him. But it was humbling to go there when I did and sit with him in the lunchroom in the cafeteria and look into his eyes and see that he was ready to make these changes. And so one of the most proud, defining moments, experiences in my life was being able to help my brother navigate his transformation. I mean, listen, he did. 90% of the work. But the fact that we did these weekly calls and he was writing me letters and he was changing his body and his mind and he was meditating, he was praying, he was doing all the things that we are supposed to be doing out here. He was doing it when he had a lot of free time and truly a beautiful experience and one that I carry with me as a speaker today.

SPEAKER_06: 32:31

My brain, when I listen to people's stories, it almost extracts processes out of story. And as I'm hearing your journey from the thing you always knew to transforming it into a new purpose this is what I heard is that you went from sort of an alone journey and in your own mind feeling this level of dissatisfaction and it took somebody else which was your brother and this was like a critical moment where you had to make a decision but it was almost this permission to step into the thing you already knew like you had a knowing that you wanted to coach but it was so scary to do it and so there's like this critical And then there was an accountability. So it was like, you have to go from alone to community, new purpose, make a decision and have accountability. I'm curious now, because I know in your keynotes and probably a lot of your conversations, you're revisiting a lot of these defining moments of your past. You mentioned you made several transitions in your life already. I imagine it becomes easier the more you do it, right? We get braver the more we rely on our courage. You've transitioned from tennis player to coach, you know, all of the other layers that you've gone through. I think the thing I'm most curious about is like, how do you know what's next? Because now you're talking about jumping out of planes, you're talking about cold plunging. Do you have this itch, this curiosity of like, what's next for you? And how do you know? Like, how do you know when it's time to like, let's say metaphorically, jump out of that airplane and make that decision?

SPEAKER_01: 33:59

First of all, you mentioned community. I've been really sitting with this a lot lately and creating some stories that maybe aren't the best stories. So I've got to really be aware of that. I'm a bit of a lone wolf So if we go back again, if we go back to our childhood, only child, parents divorced at four, first memory growing up is alone in my bedroom, walking up to go play tennis at seven years old on a busy street. Like you don't normally let kids walk on a busy traffic street at seven years old. You don't do that in 2025. Maybe you did in 1980. And then you step on a tennis court and I'm not playing doubles most of the time. I'm playing singles. And the only one that is responsible for winning and losing is me like I have to solve it and you start doing that at four years old and you take it to where you took it it's like it's deeply embedded to be an individualist and

SPEAKER_02: 34:54

to

SPEAKER_01: 34:56

think believe that you can do it on your own which is ridiculous because I had so much help on my journey there's a perception that I did it alone but like so many people helped me get to where I want to go and so I've really been leaning into this idea of community it's very a natural It's natural for me, even though we're supposed to like crave that. I like one-on-one conversations. And so that is one thing I'm looking at. It's almost a bit overwhelming for my nervous system to like expand into community and to find the space for that because of how I've operated. I've never said this before on a podcast, what I'm about to say, but I, and the light just went out.

SPEAKER_03: 35:39

It's okay.

SPEAKER_01: 35:40

Hello. Symbolic. We can do this.

SPEAKER_06: 35:44

The darkness of light. You will stay in the dark with this thought. I will not let you bring it into the light.

SPEAKER_01: 35:50

Jeez, I know. If

SPEAKER_06: 35:51

it makes you feel any better, we often get the, I've never said this before. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01: 35:57

I've never said this before on a podcast, but you think of unique journeys and if you go back again into your past and your patterns and how you see the world and how you perceive relationships and community. I've never been married before. Relationships, you know, intimate relationships have been something, again, the unconscious pattern. I'm safer on my own because that's what I know.

SPEAKER_02: 36:18

And

SPEAKER_01: 36:19

I've always kind of chosen that hero's journey, alchemist path. And there's a season coming of calling in someone to do this with in this second half of life. And so what's interesting about my story, and I'm also open to kids too, which, you know, I'm 51. Why not? Like, it would only make sense for me to like make a family and have a bunch of kids because I always thought I wouldn't. The story I tell myself is that people, maybe they're young and they get into relationships and they don't really know who they are and they don't even know the person they're with. And then somebody wants to change more than the other. And so I'm going to just say one of two things happens. The two people decide they're going to grow together and it just becomes this beautiful thing that started out as maybe not very aware and then became like really beautiful. Or one person goes and then it just doesn't work out. And then you maybe try it again the second time and maybe you get it right the second time maybe not or other people maybe they wait till their 30s and then they they're more self-aware and then they find their partner and here I am like bumping up against I don't know time like oh my gosh I'm 51 what have I been doing like I've been on this remarkable journey but like yeah there's just a level of self-awareness now of well I'm either gonna do this thing on my own for a bit because of who I am and or I'm going to call someone in that's gonna match where I'm at. So I'm doing the work to be ready for that possibility. Like I said, I've never said that publicly.

SPEAKER_03: 37:47

So it's not just cold plunges and planes. This is another one of those edges. We've learned about a few other edges. What I'm hearing in your answer to Melissa's question, and I think it's a beautiful answer, is that if we start to look at the places that we've been afraid to look, that is going to shine a light on what the next thing is. I don't know if the answer is always to jump out of the plane or to get into the cold plunge. Like we think

SPEAKER_06: 38:42

about the journey and destination. And so often we think about what's next as in professional accomplishments, right? Launching the business, it's the professional pivot. And what you spoke to in what's next was all relational. It was partnership and community. And maybe those will have something to do with business, but perhaps not at all.

SPEAKER_03: 39:06

But I actually think that that connects back to this idea of the masculine and the feminine that you brought up. Yeah. Yeah. think in that way. Like we have no idea what a relationship for you or accessing community would open up in your professional life. But we always think outside in, not inside out.

SPEAKER_01: 39:52

My biggest challenge around the community aspect has been, you know, finding that fit. I've tried some men's groups and again, maybe it's me, but like I would sit there sometimes and be like, I don't think so. This doesn't feel like the right fit. So then I kind of go back to lone wolfing a bit.

SPEAKER_03: 40:08

I don't know if you've heard of human design, but I'm a human design reader. From the perspective of human design, and if you've never heard of it, there's similarities to astrology and numerology and things like that. We talk about community a lot on this show, and I think it's worth noting that at least from the perspective of the work that I do, not everyone is meant for community in the same way. Community can look like many, many different things. And I love that you said, I'm better in one-on-one conversations. I think that's totally valid. Some people, when I give readings, they are They are here to have a certain amount of separateness and autonomy. Literally, there's a gate in human design called the gate of aloneness. And it's there to help protect your energy so that you can be of service and be properly boundaried. That's one reason for it. But also because in order to be healthy in community, we also need to have a strong sense of self and be self-actualized and know that everybody serves a unique purpose. We really are here to bring our unique gifts forward and then work together and collaborate together. We are better together than maybe on our own because we're all lifting each other up and bringing the skill sets that we might lack someone else brings to the table and it can be a really beautiful thing. But I think it is also a beautiful thing to be on that journey on your own and develop your sense of self and learn who you are and you're probably a leader and that's another reason why people are given that energy. It's difficult to be the visionary and be enmeshed in the group at the same time. So I just wanted to say that to not negate your instincts, that maybe there's a reason you've been walking the solo path and it's a beautiful thing. And maybe it's also a season to learn what community means to you and both are simultaneously

SPEAKER_01: 41:59

okay. Maybe you two can help me define that for me.

SPEAKER_06: 42:02

And we see that all the time in Nova because most of the people, the women that come into our community are, I'd say like 40 to 65. And so often They're walking into our room and saying, Take some time to find the so good. And so I think when we think about starting to cultivate it, it really is just one really nice, meaningful, soul nourishing relationship at a time. And it's perfectly okay. And I love Jess's gift with human design. And I actually have been thinking this since the beginning of our conversation that I hope you get a reading with her. I send every human being I know to Jess for this because I think human design is the tool that makes you feel the most seen and normal for every single way that you are, where you're not like, something's wrong with me. I'm a lone wolf. It's like, nope, that's actually exactly how you're supposed to be at however we arrive and whenever we arrive at this desire, it's right on time.

SPEAKER_03: 43:48

And I think it's a beautiful thing going back to just looking at our growth edges and our discomfort to regardless of whether you feel like a lone wolf or you feel like you're someone who's natural in community, we all have barriers to connection and vulnerability and the willingness to be seen and known deeply. I think so many people listening to this are going to relate to this, to just have the bravery, the courage, talking about emotional risk to spend time in those questions is I think a really profound thing. So good on you.

SPEAKER_01: 44:20

Let me, yeah, let me share something off of that. I'm in a season right now where, and I'm getting coached in, he's a coach slash therapist, former rabbi in a past life, very wise, wise soul. And when I go in and this all started three months ago, my father was diagnosed with stage four cancer and in March.

SPEAKER_03: 44:41

I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_01: 44:43

Thank you. And I got on a plane and flew down to Florida to get him. He was alone and not in a great situation. I intuitively knew this was not a good situation and it wasn't going to go well if he stayed there. So on March 28th, I brought him back to Colorado. And so I went from being to now I'm primary caregiver for my father, who is a wonderful, nice dude, but he didn't raise me. And so we have a really interesting connection that now I'm taking care of someone that in many respects didn't show up for me. And what I've been bumping up against, and this is, you know, the human side of me, the coach is supposed to have it all together. I'm noticing a couple of themes. The more that I keep growing and evolving, I'm actually noticing a lot of judgment coming up. I'm noticing a lot of comparison. So, you know, all the cliche is like comparison is the thief for the joy and judgment takes you out of the flow and I'm supposed to be the zone coach and yet I'm noticing those edges are coming up like crazy for me right now and it's painful it's uncomfortable I don't even know what to do with it sometimes and then the third theme so judgment comparison and then the last is being seen you mentioned that

SPEAKER_02: 46:00

yeah

SPEAKER_01: 46:01

and when I see if I get emotional or not but when I go in and I sit with my coach and there's something about this room I sit in this room and i tell him my stuff and like the tears and the emotion and all of this pent-up stuff is coming out but i feel fully seen by him and i was at a speaking event last week and you talk about community it's this incredible community it's called impact 11 there's like 300 speakers and everyone's hugging and high-fiving and we're in it together and we're growing and i see how everyone's so friendly everyone's like together and like you mentioned i i've met those one-on one people, but I almost feel like how are these people friends with everyone? And on LinkedIn, they're like posting group selfies. How are these people like living their lives and staying in touch with these people? Gosh, how are they doing this? And I remember stepping out of the room. It was like a quick break and then it bled into another talk. And I met up with one of the partners who ironically, his theme of what he talks about is called made with love. And he's one of the guys in there that I just feel so connected to. and I was kind of going through something and he just held space for me and so in a season where I feel like I'm not being seen by many in a lot of situations or not understood I have these two tangible examples of this coach that's seeing me every week and this person that's in the group that like held space for me when I was going through a really hard moment and so it's just this paradox right now for me of like seeing and unseen judgment and like how do I let go of this and It's a lot. So I guess I'm getting my own therapy session in this podcast today, telling you all things that I've never shared before.

SPEAKER_03: 47:50

I so appreciate your vulnerability and especially as coaches. And this is what I find so interesting is that your work now is actually seeing people and you had the experience, if we go back to your brother for a moment, of the power of seeing someone and holding space for someone and how it transforms And yet even when we know that and we serve that role for other people, and I love that you're being so honest as a coach because the three of us are coaches in this space and we know that we don't have our shit figured out all the time. that in return. Am I allowed to go back, Mo, or do you have a question? I am the boss of this show. You know what, Jess, I

SPEAKER_06: 48:47

trust you. You do whatever you

SPEAKER_03: 48:48

want, girl. Okay. I'm just really curious about that moment for you, that moment with your brother where you said he overdosed and then that was it. You made the switch. And I think in the moment, though, even though that's what happened, what occurred emotionally for you in that moment that allowed the switch to happen? I

SPEAKER_01: 49:11

don't know how much emotion it was as much as it was, okay, I've been training on a tennis court since I was four years old solving problems. I know how to get shit done. I know how to make it happen. I can get this to go in the right direction. I can lead through this. So, and I think it also speaks to where I was at in my life. And I mean, if you look at like generational trauma in our lineage, like what are the chances you live a life where at 33 years old, you play pro tennis for 11 years and then you see your brother lying helplessly on the floor and your father and your stepmother are not able to kind of put that together to help him. And I take on that role.

SPEAKER_02: 49:57

And

SPEAKER_01: 49:59

then fast forward 18 years and I'm getting on a plane and I'm flying down to go pick up my father to take care of him. So interesting. Go in the annals of history and And try to find another story where I am the chosen one or the leader, or I'm supposed to heal this trauma in my family. And I literally have tried to like fix or save two people in my family that are men. And I have my own stuff I'm working through around the divine masculine and like providing and protecting, like feeling like I can take care of a family. It's a lot. It's a lot. Like if someone wants to hang out with me and like like, help me work through this. Cause it's like, I'm going through it. And yet I know that on the flip side, obviously when I'm coaching people, I'm able to draw on all of this to help them. So in that moment, I don't, there was probably fear, but there's more like when you're down four or five, this is trivial, but you're down four or five in the third set and you got to hold serve. What you do is you take 25 seconds between points. You take a deep breath, you get your strategy, you trust your serve and you freaking go for it. And that's what I did with my brother figure it out later you know if you fast forward he goes to prison we transform I shouldn't say we he transforms probably we well yeah so just want to try to keep my ego out of it but he transforms and then he gets out of prison and he's like a house on fire in terms of what he wants to do and all the ideas he has and one thing I remember is that very early on I got wind that he was drinking alcohol when he got out of prison and I looked at him and I'm like like Bad idea, jeans. Like, no, that's not a play. That's me. That's me. The responsible one. Like, we're not going to push those edges there. We're just not going there. But he did. And at the time I let it go. I thought, well, you know what? Maybe he can handle it. You know, there's certain people that can, you know, I didn't know. So, so we went on this journey the next three years, really working to build him up. And he went so fast up in the world and he learned business coaching online. I got him into the marketing gurus. I mean, anyone who could be a drug dealer and successful in that world and navigate gangs and navigate prison can probably figure out sales and like growing a business. So he did that. And then I mentioned the alcohol because about two and a half to three years after prison wins a speaking contest, he gets a TEDx talk. He's on the stage doing a TEDx two and a half years out of getting out of prison. And about three months after that, he ran into an old drug dealer and for some reason decided to buy drugs and use drugs again.

SPEAKER_02: 52:42

And,

SPEAKER_01: 52:43

you know, as connected as my brother, I was a mentor. I was looking up to him. He would always say, Jeff, you're my best friend. We were brothers, but like I was this father figure to him. And then when he started using, our connection just went like that, you know, it went completely different directions. And it got really bad, so bad that he overdosed two and a half years ago and he died. And so that journey of seeing him lie on, thank you, seeing him lying on on the floor when he was 17 and you fast forward 15 years and he's lying on a floor alone in a room and he died. And yeah, it's like, this is part of my why. He's in my keynote, he's in my story. It's a big humanizing factor around my journey. Yeah, there's a lot to squeeze in there.

SPEAKER_06: 53:33

Yeah, so much deep healing happening. I mean, that's still so recent and then to have your dad re-emerging and... Just bringing that up of like, you're like 18 years later, here's my dad and simultaneously, there's just so much to unpack. And I'm very sad that we need to wrap up.

SPEAKER_01: 53:49

One thing I want to say about that. Yeah, please. I don't know if I'm going to share this link with him, but, you know, talk about seen and unseen, like your father, when you feel like he can't see you. It's the worst. And he's living with me as he's going through cancer. And there's a love there, but like to not feel like... you're ever gonna be seen and it's in your face. It's like, it's a lot.

SPEAKER_06: 54:14

Yeah, it's so much. And simultaneously, oh, I just wanna talk to you for so long. You're also getting the juxtaposition of being so deeply seen by these other men. And so I have no doubt that this will all make sense one day of the timing of all of it. But when we're in it, it's like, this is so confusing. Like, why now? Why is this happening?

SPEAKER_03: 54:35

Yeah. There's a really important takeaway for me that I'm hearing, and this was a really difficult lesson in my life, that as someone who is inclined to be of service and is inclined to make a difference and has an instinct to save people, there is also this level of acceptance that we learn the hard way that one, we can't save people who don't want to be saved, but also some people will never change and they might not be what we need them to be. And there is this painful reality Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_06: 55:40

But the more that I have been deeply seen by people in my life, I actually don't really need it. Right. And that just, that took me 10 years to feel calm in my system with my family. They're alive and so it's a different journey, but it took me 10 years of working on that to be so seen with myself and then to not need it from them. Right. it's like a whole freaking painful zing experience that

SPEAKER_03: 56:16

yeah it's often when we let go of the need to be seen by the people who can't see us that the people who see us can see us

SPEAKER_01: 56:24

and there's something to be said again about out of sight out of mind like if you're 2,000 miles away from your parents who don't see you like it's good but when you see them every day and you walk in a room and you're like this is how our relationship is and there's no Like there's nothing there to like, it's very confronting. And that's why the judgment and the comparison and the what the heck is going on. That's my work is like to be in it. And again, we know as coaches, what a gift on the positive side to be able to say, you know, a client's working with you and you have an experience that's maybe similar or you can relate to that can make a difference for them.

SPEAKER_03: 57:03

What a beautiful moment you're in, Jeff. I know it's hard, but thank you for being so honest.

SPEAKER_02: 57:09

Thank you. Thank

SPEAKER_06: 57:10

you. Yeah. Thank you for being here and thank you for your vulnerability and

SPEAKER_03: 57:15

such a beautiful, unexpected conversation. And I'm really glad that we had that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 57:20

Yeah. It wasn't the normal, it wasn't a normal podcast of talking about the journey and what you do now and not usually want

SPEAKER_06: 57:26

it to be actually. I'm like, well, let's have the conversation that you haven't had before. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 57:31

Well, that's what we're doing. Thank you. So thank you. All right. All right.

SPEAKER_03: 57:36

Lots of love. Thank you for being here. Yeah.

UNKNOWN: 57:40

Bye. Bye. Bye.